International cricket rolling thread

Over in this thread are lists of greatest teamsof all time.

The thread is dominated by the usual suspects but Cumbrian bravely ventured forth into the near closed universe of baseball, basketball and NFL to post his cricket best of all time and of his own.

In more familiar environs I thought is merited athe opportunity to draw more comment so …
1 Jack Hobbs (Matthew Hayden)
2 WG Grace (Alastair Cook)
3 Don Bradman (Ricky Ponting)
4 Sachin Tendulkar (Brian Lara)
5 Viv Richards (Kumar Sangakkara)
6 Garfield Sobers (Jacques Kallis)
7 Alan Knott (Adam Gilchrist) - both to keep wicket
8 Wasim Akram (Imran Khan)
9 Shane Warne (Curtly Ambrose)
10 Malcolm Marshall (Waqar Younis)
11 Glenn McGrath (Muttiah Muralitharan)
Bradman’s . . . PT’s

  1. Barry Richards [South Africa] . . . (Kane Williams [New Zealand])
  2. Arthur Morris [Australia] . . . (Viv Richards [West Indies])
  3. Don Bradman [Australia] . . . (Ricky Ponting [Australia])
  4. Sachin Tendulkar [India] . . . (Virat Kohli [India])
  5. Garry Sobers [West Indies] . . . (Jaques Kallis [South Africa])
  6. Don Tallon [Australia] . . . (Adam Gilchrist [Australia])
  7. Ray Lindwall [Australia] . . . (Wasim Akram [Pakistan])
  8. Dennis Lillee [Australia] . . . (Shane Warne [Australia])
  9. Alec Bedser [England] . . . (Joel Garner [West Indies])
  10. Bill O’Reilly [Australia] . . . (Michael Holding [West Indies])
  11. Clarrie Grimmett [Australia] . . . (Dennis Lillee [Australia])

Good spot - I obviously didn’t read that closely enough. India currently doing well in this particular series. Kohli just continues to pound out the runs - he’s averaging basically 100 with the bat at a run a ball in ODIs since the start of 2016. 55% of his innings since then feature a score of 50 or above. Man’s a freak.

I have failed to get organised (or on reflection, have enough money) to get along to one of these - though if there are cheap tickets going somewhere within striking distance of home, I might well see if I can drop in late. As ever, I blew my money on 4 days worth of tickets at The Oval for the Test match there. Ashes this year, so the tickets cost about 20% more than for any other series too…

Nice. Don Tallon is a new one on me. Obviously you rate him - what was he like/what did he do?

Also, Warne in your reserves? Maybe it’s me being English but I could never watch him with the ball without thinking “here comes a wicket”. He was literally the first name I selected.

I thought my most contentious pick might be McGrath but I consider him to be the most accurate bowler I think I have ever seen, never letting the batsman away, despite not being as hostile as some of the other contenders.

Just as an addendum on mine, the main names were essentially trying to be somewhat dispassionate about the exercise and got into numbers. All the names in brackets were selected from people I have actually seen. Of all of them, Kumar Sangakkara is probably the one I would go to bat for (so to speak) the most. Comfortably the best bat I have seen in the flesh (Tendulkar underperformed when I saw him), capable of elegance and brutality, watchfulness and free flowing stroke play. His numbers are pretty astonishing too - if he’d never played the Test matches in which he kept wicket, he’d have scored 9200 runs at an average north of 66, which is top drawer by anyone’s measure.

WG is a giant of the game, obviously, but I’m not sure he really belongs on lists like these.

The lists given are strong, although I’d be tempted to try and squeeze Graeme Smith in somewhere, and I think Steve Smith will, in years to come, be a regular feature of these lists (as will Kohli, and maybe even Root).

WG is impossible to evaluate because the game has changed so much. He dominated his contemporaries - but was he great or was the standard low? Numbers mean nothing because no modern is expected to play on the sort of pitches he faced routinely and because few 19th-century cricketers were half as athletic, coached or conditioned as a modern county player.
And if you put in Grace, why not Sydney Barnes, or Trumper, or Lohmann?

Sticking to players I’ve actually seen:

Sunil Gavaskar
Gordon Greenidge
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis
Steve Waugh
Adam Gilchrist
Ian Botham
Shane Warne
Malcolm Marshall
Waquar Younis

If the pitch is going to turn, put in Murali for Waqar; if it looks hard and bouncy, Curtley Ambrose.

Omitted with regret: Alastair Cook, Virender Sehwag, Allan Border, Brian Lara, Kumar Sangakkara, Ian Healy, Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Graeme Swann, Glenn McGrath, Courtney Walsh

I removed some context which didn’t explain my two lists properly.

The left hand column is the team picked by Don Bradman in:

The RH column is mine XI, I don’t have reserves.

Don’s choice, and The Don really though his '48 side was as good a cricket ever got.
Tallon played 21 Tests from 1946-53. He was aged 30 on Test debut. Made his 1st class debut for Queensland 13 years before. But for WWII probably should have been Australia Test keeper from 1937-1953.

Tallon was a much better gloveman than Gilchrist, not as good a bat. More classical style batsman, less bludgeoning. Capable of opening at Test level.
(His brother Bill was a fast bowler for Queensland and tells one of the best yarns going round about dismissing Bradman)

Kumar was the last one I cut from my list.
I had him opening and switched in Willliams.

I’m not qualified to make my own list, but I think you’re going to have to argue pretty hard to convince me that Healy and Swann belong with the others in the pantheon. Top players, yes, but not among the gods of the game like all the other names you listed (of which I would say Cook, Ambrose, and Sehwag are also somewhat second tier - great players, but with more rough patches in their careers than the others, IMVHO).

Well. you’ll note I didn’t include them :wink:
Swann is a push, I’ll grant you - but I was really struggling for a spinner in my 2nd XI. After Warne and Murali, how many truly great spinners have there been in the last 40 years? The obvious name is Anil Kumble, but he was much more effective in India than elsewhere (and he never did well in England, so I never saw him at his best).
As for Healy, he was named keeper (ahead of Tallon and Marsh) in Australia’s official Team of the 20th Century - and while neither he nor anyone else could bat like Gilchrist, I don’t think anyone’s kept better in the last few decades. And since he’s going to be coming in at 8 after Imran & Hadlee, I think I can afford him a bit of slack in the batting.

More generally, I’m picking my players at their peak (hey, I have a time machine, so why not?) rather than averaged over their careers. So I’ve got the Botham of 1980, when he was the best swing bowler in the world as well as a dangerous lower-order hitter, rather than the shadow that lingered too long into the '80s, and the Cook of the Strauss era, when he looked like he might be the only man ever to have a legitimate shot at Tendulkar’s records. Ambrose could be up and down, but at his best he was the most destructive bowler I’ve ever seen - when he was on fire, the collapse was only ever one ball away.
Openers is the other slot where I had lots of very good candidates but not so many stand-out greats - Haynes of course, but I already had Greenidge. I wouldn’t blame you for taking Hayden or Mark Taylor or Graeme Smith, but I don’t think any of them could mess up an attack quite like Sehwag.

Anyone else here watching Cricket Fever on Netflix? I’m enjoying it a lot. It helps that I don’t follow the IPL at all so the outcome of each match is a surprise for me.

And so, after the excitement of the World Cup in its in own thread, we return to your regularly scheduled Cricket rolling thread.

Ireland is “touring” England next week, with a single Test at Lords starting Wednesday. England have announced the squad, with Roy coming in to open opposite Burns, so hopefully we can leave the likes of Keaton Jennings and James Vince way behind. Some surprises with the bowling, with Somerset’s Lewis Gregory getting into the squad, and Anderson being picked to bowl - I did think he might be rested for injury after the side strain.

Presumably they want to see how Anderson goes as a warm up for the main event. If he hits form, it’s a good chance to get his name on the board again, I would think. If he breaks down, more time to think about a replacement.

As a Somerset man born and bred (and still living here) I have been vaguely following their run at the County Chanpionship this year. Gregory is not a name that’s been particularly prominent to me, but I did say “vaguely”.

Agree about Roy - as I said previously, I’d much rather have someone who might score 50 at a run a ball or get out early, than someone who might score a good looking 19 off 42 balls before nicking off, or get out early.

Meanwhile in the one off Test in womens multi-format Ashes, England seeking to get back in the competition wanted a raging turner to aid their spinners and served a second hand wicket replete with footmarks from a CWC19 fixture 6 weeks ago.

But a track has so far been OK with a bit of bounce and not much lateral movement nor pace for that matter.Then by winning he toss and batting the visitors did most to negate the expected deterioration by the end of the 4th day.

At the end of day 1 Australia 3-265 Healy 58, Lanning 57, Perry 84no and Hayes 54no.
A good session with the bat and one with the ball and the Aussies will have the Ashes secured.

The recent development in cricket bat technology (lighter, bigger sweet spots etc) have helped the batters in womens cricket immensely. At the moment the bowling generally has not taken the similar lift in standards.

A curiousity:
Alyssa Healy and Mitchell Starc are a couple.
Healy made her Australian debut in 2010. Starc made his debut in 2011.
Starc has played 51 Tests, Healy, who’s played in every Womens Test since debut has 4.

That last stat is interesting, but given we struggle to fill stadia for five days for a men’s test, perhaps not too surprising.

How exactly has the manufacture of cricket bats changed?

A lot thicker and mositure is removed, makibg more of the weight and volume solid wood.

I’ve been reading back through this thread a bit, and I’d kind of forgotten how awful our batting has been in Tests.

The objections to Roy opening in tests are still there - we don’t actually need a swashbuckling 30 off 30 at the top for getting out, we need someone who can hang about and make things easier for Joe Root to come in and turn his inevitable 50 into more 100s.

Just to add a couple of things - Anderson’s injury is a calf tear, not a side strain.

https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1266993/james-anderson-injury-update

Mark Wood has a side strain and is supposedly out for 6 weeks. Jofra Archer also has a side strain but it’s supposedly not as bad as Wood’s.

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/jofra-archer-mark-wood-jimmy-anderson-england-bowlers-injury-worries-ashes/2019-07-18

England’s squad v Ireland looks very imbalanced. We’re likely to be playing 6 bowlers (including all rounders) in this game, which is too many for my money.

Somerset were looking like they were going to win the CC this year - and I think most neutrals are willing them on, since they’ve been very close over the last few years and they’re one of only three counties to never have won the County Championship as it is currently recognised (Northants one of the others and Gloucestershire who were “acclaimed” as “champion county” three times in the 1870s - wiki says this was an unofficial seasonal title sometimes proclaimed by consensus of media and historians prior to December 1889 when the official County Championship was constituted. Although there are ante-dated claims prior to 1873, when residence qualifications were introduced, it is only since that ruling that any quasi-official status can be ascribed). Lewis Gregory has been a key member of that side (along with Leach and Bess, already capped by England). This season, Gregory has taken 44 wickets at 13.88. He deserves his chance but you can’t see him continuing in the side in the short term, except as now in the case of injuries. Maybe he’ll be around in the post-Anderson era, which is hoving into view.

As a member at Surrey, I have seen Roy bat in red ball more than most, I imagine. I am concerned. He has talent, clearly, but he has opened very little in this format at county level and has usually scored his runs at 5, after the shine has been knocked off the ball. In the absence of any better ideas in the black hole that constitutes England’s top 3, he’s worth a go but don’t be surprised if he doesn’t succeed. Rory Burns hasn’t scored 50 in his last 12 CC innings either - be prepared for the opener carousel to turn once again either during this series or immediately after it.

A few things here: I can’t think of anyone selling out Day 5 of any Test anywhere in the world, since no-one can be sure that there will be a game on Day 5. England sells out more days of its Tests than anywhere else in the world, largely because of its small grounds and large immigrant populations - difficult to get tickets for the India tests last year for instance, and I’ve been to packed houses at The Oval against them, Pakistan, South Africa and Australia over the last 4 years. And finally, if the “we” here is the royal we (i.e. the whole of the cricketing world) I’m struggling to understand why sparse crowds for the women’s Tests would mean that you wouldn’t hold more of them - clearly it’s not a bar to putting Tests on for the men. It’s more likely that the main reason for few Tests for the women is that, until recently, a lot of them were balancing their cricket with making money in a paying job - so you can’t very easily have long tours, encompassing lots of Test matches. As a result, the women’s game has developed differently, with more emphasis on white ball cricket. It may be difficult to turn this around now, even if the women’s game wants more Test matches, simply because of the way the sport has evolved.

Australia are going to hammer England in the women’s Test.

Women’s Ashes Test
Drinks, 1st session day 3, AUS 6-388 off 148 overs and looks like there is only one team who can win, and even they aren’t really trying that hard. It’s not a great advertisement for brighter cricket.

AUS declare 8-420, probably an hour late.
The window for ENG to win from here is highly improbable.
It will take ENG 100 overs to post a competitive score and there are about 150 left in the Test.
Not sure that, with any application from the batters, there is time to dismiss them twice.

150 overs is a long time to bat, even twice. I think Aus chances are much higher than you suggest!