International Mafia

The Game Room
141
  1. I said what I think the Town is giving away: Their power roles, who will be killed promptly after a mass claim, and I was also questioning what the Town is receiving in exchange :

Please enlighten me on how the Town is compensated. Your post says “the benefit to town coming out of the dark a bit”, but I am afraid this is not enough in my eyes.

  1. Closed setup is harder on Town - agreed. but I don’t think that mass claiming is a good way to get closer to an open setup because they 2 different beasts and should be approached differently. Mass claiming makes more sense in an open setup because role distribution is known from the get go, and counterclaims can play a big part in the result. Honestly I don’t like open setups, and I rarely play them.
142

I am proposing that every player unequivocately state their travel capabilities.

Based on information from the moderator, we have no reason to expect any correlation between travel capability and citizenship, alignment, or other powers. Thus, we do not even risk exposing our power roles by making a mass travel claim.

143

NAF wasn’t talking about revealing power roles, he was responding to your stance on revealing travel ability.

In a game with unusual flavor like this, it’s probably wise to be a little cautious about how much information to reveal, one way or another. I do start looking closely at people dead set against it so soon.

144

I was speaking even more generally than that. Romanic stated that we don’t want to give free information to scum on Day 1 (and possibly 2 and 3. Where does it stop?). I think that’s a position that fosters town secrecy will only ever end up with scum having access to more information than town. It also will end up with people seeming to hide things and giving off false scum tells when they are town, so it makes town’s job doubly hard in that respect also.

How and what information we want to reveal is open to debate and dependent on circumstance, but I really believe that playing as transparently as is reasonable* is the best course of action for town.
*and reasonable needs to be determined by each individual player. Only you know what you know and how much it could possibly help.

145

Ok…well that makes me a little less happy with my vote. It doesn’t really change the main thrust of my argument (that your post consists of stating suspicion of players and then backing off by the end leaving you where you started), it just makes it less blatant.

146

My post that you voted for consisted of 4 things:

  1. A clarification of a statement that Pleonast made about my position on travel.
  2. The Baffle/Pleonast thing that we just discussed.
  3. My statement that Wolverine’s idea was terrible but not necessarily scummy.
  4. A question for Idle Thoughts.

#1 and #4 do not state suspicion of anyone. #2 explains why I initially found something suspicious about Baffle but changed my mind (as we’ve just discussed). #3 does not state suspicion or back off of anything - it labels something as “a bad idea that is not necessarily scummy.” I stand by it as a legit comment on Wolverine’s idea - just because someone has a bad idea does not mean that they are scum, and stating that is not waffling. You are trying to make something out of nothing. I would say that that is not necessarily scummy, but then you would accuse me of waffling about you. :stuck_out_tongue:

147

Agreed on all of the above. Points 1&4 are outside the scope of my vote. 2&3 are all meaningless postings, which is my point. Maybe waffling is a bad word. It feels like a post that is designed to make it look like you are saying things about what is going on in the game and adding content and analysis, when you aren’t actually doing anything.

:wink:
I may in fact be making something out of nothing, but it’s still early and I like to poke at stuff. I am not yet convinced that it wasn’t what it looks like, though again, I think it’s less strong after the Pleo correction.

148

(bleached)

It’s not a smudge if it’s neutral. You could just as easily be a town power role looking for a specific kind of scum.

I am against any claim of travel ability. I think it’s way too easy for scum to use that against us, and I don’t see anything to gain from it.

149

Notice what I said to Shadow about poking stuff?

Yeah, re the above bolded bit of the quote: how? I want to get an idea of how you think. What do you think is going to happen?

150

Implying I am a liar is not neutral.

151

I expect the scum players may try to concentrate themselves in one location over the next few days. If they know who among us can travel, they can use their night kills to kill those people, and after just a few days of play, they’ll be able to outnumber town in a location without fear of travelers from the other location coming to even it out.

152

I’m not sure what you mean here.

Where did I?

153

Here:

By implying that I was less than forthright with my role claim.

I also note that you find me “suspicious” because of my advocacy of a mass travel claim. So your statement,

is disingenuous. No one neutrally refers to town as “suspicious”.

Not only did you smudge me, you are now trying to spin your statements. I am more confident that my vote on you is well placed.

Can you explain why you think this scenario is bad? As far as I can tell concentrating scum in one location is good for us (well, for town, not for you).

154

Don’t worry about it. I was amusing myself more than anything, trying to keep logical continuity between my recent flurry of posts.

155

How so? As soon as anyone travels, we’ll know about it, and can demand reasons.

What an immediate travel-reveal means for the scum is that they can’t save the decision whether or not to lie until a later date, with the trade-off that they know for certain which townies can and cannot travel. In other words, the reveal guarantees the scum a concrete benefit now, in exchange for cutting off a possible benefit in the future.

Is that a good deal for the town? At this stage, it’s impossible to say. But the decision not to reveal can be reversed at any time, whereas the decision to reveal is permanent. Absent the expectation that it will help us catch scum today, I’m inclined to err on the side of caution.

At the least, I think we ought to allow the players who cannot yet speak to give their own opinions before taking the decision to reveal. It could be that one of them has a knock-out argument for or against the proposition.

156

More confident? Or completely confident? Your last statement here implies you’re now certain I am scum. Or are you just trying to make it look that way so your argument appears more valid?

I’ve only played a handful of games, but many times I’ve seen a person slander another player by appearing certain of that target’s scumminess. It’s an example of picking a target and then building a case, rather than looking for evidence first, and it’s the kind of behaviour helps scum a lot more than it helps town.

157

To clarify: I’m sure you think you have some evidence; that’s irrelevant. But by taking small pieces of evidence and treating them like it’s a major revelation worthy of certainty, you set the tone of the thread in such a way that it makes your argument appear more valid than it is. That appears like it’s intended to delude others rather than honestly convince them. And that’s what’s scummy.

158

Hey guys! It’s finals week here, so my time has been somewhat limited. However, I’m still absolutely stoked to play this game, and I figured I’d enter with a bang. Here, in spoiled form, are my thoughts/speculation/smudges about the game so far:

[spoiler]ShadowFacts, post 84 - Lots of talk about game theory. Seems full of content, but is just fluff. Why automatically vote for anyone traveling? The game seems to be BUILT around traveling, at least for some players. Why did he think Sach would make the game so easy? SLIGHT SCUM PING

Idle, post 85 - early claim makes me trust him less.

Pleo, post 87 - Why the full claim?

Idle, post 89 - And now there’s a full claim. Not digging it.

Suburban, post 91 - Lots of talk about game mechanics, built upon erroneous idea about how travel works (it’s ridiculous to think it would make you IMMUNE to lynching). I’d expect scum, especially this early, to be more concerned with not standing out in any way. SP’s post, especially with how blatantly wrong it is, make me lean town on him.

Suburban, post 94 - Corrects Rin Twisted, who was in fact question him. Only an hour since his last post, and he (correctly) states the rules with no indication about what led him to be mistaken before. Not sure why, but this makes me lean scum on him again. Net result - neutral.

NAF, post 98 - suggesting a form of claim. I’m usually against these, but his isn’t a problem, since it would have to come up eventually anyway.

Suburban, post 100 - solid reasoning about why a claim wouldn’t help. Leaning town again, since I’m convinced early claims help scum. Of course, I was scum in two previous games, and both times fought against a claim. Net result - neutral.

Baffle, post 102 - Good, solid speculation. Helps town. Scum would have no reason to suggest something like that at this point in the game. We’ll eventually figure it out. I can’t rule out the possibility that he’s hoping for early town cred, but I’m gonna lean town for now anyway.

Baffle, post 107 - Agreed, again. I oppose early claims, and I can’t see scum picking a side in a debate this early like he’s doing. I also agree that Pleo isn’t calling for a mass claim, just subtly suggestion. Slight town.

McGinty, post 111 - Why would scum have to decide whether they can travel or not? Sach hasn’t provided any “limits” on how many people can travel, and an earlier poster has already claimed as Vanilla traveler. Given what information we currently have, claiming “traveler” doesn’t put any additional suspicion on said traveler. If it is somehow revealed later that all scum are travelers, then it might be helpful.

Suburban Plankton, post 113 - Solid reasoning. Agreed with this post.

Romanic, post 116 - I agree with your hunch. Day 1 is not the time to be giving scum information for free.

Romanic, post 117 - good pro-town speculation (unless it isn’t!) I’m inclined to agree with your speculation; that is, something is going on with those two players. Your suggested possibility (that one is scum and the other is town) isn’t yet supported by facts, and they could also be power roles or a moderator diversion. Your speculation is worthwhile, however, because it reminds us to keep our eyes on them.

Wolverine, post 118 - Your recommendation is nonsensical. We’d be voting for someone on even LESS information than is usual for a Day 1 vote. That sounds terrible all around. Scum tell.

Related following posts - I’m glad I’m not the only one with concerns about Wolverine’s idea.

Pleonast, post 128 - Not feeling the vote on Baffle for the smudge, but on Day 1 it’s as reasonable as most other votes. Can’t decide if I feel this should be slight scum or net neutral, so I’ll pick net neutral for now. Agreed about lurkers; with fewer players, it’s an even worse sin. Not sure if I agree with you about mass claims neither helping nor hurting, because we have no idea if this is a balanced game. As far as I know, a game of these type hasn’t been attempted on these boards before.

ShadowFacts, post 130 - No longer believes anyone traveling is instantly suspect. Regarding his first post on the matter (84), I’m still not 100% on his stated reasoning, even if he’s since changed his mind. Could be a townie mistake that he’s realized, or it could be scum backing away from a tricky post. Net neutral.

Pleonast, post 132 - “I am advocating a mass claim.” Did you? I don’t remember you directly advocating one prior to this post, and asking “Perhaps?” doesn’t equate with advocating something. That would make Baffle’s posts NOT smudges.

Romanic, post 136 - Good solid pro-town reasoning. I hadn’t considered scum all traveling to one location to outnumber town, so now it’s something for me to keep in mind. Slight town.

NAF, post 137 - I’ve also been scum, and it’s been my gut reaction that outing players and power roles has been immensely helpful to my (scummy) play. Granted, I’ve only played two games, so take that for what you will.

Pleonast, post 139 - Again, you’re forgetting that this might not be a balanced game. We don’t know yet. There’s lots we don’t know yet. If it’s net neutral in a balanced game, and helps scum in an unbalanced game, why on earth do we want to do it on DAY 1?

NAF, post 144 - Not feeling the slippery slope right now. It’s reasonable to be against a Day 1 mass claim because town knows literally nothing at the start. Day 2? Maybe okay. Day 3? Maybe okay. But I’m pretty sure a Day 1 mass claim will always be bad. I’m breathlessly waiting for somebody to explain to me why I’m wrong! :slight_smile:

Shadowfacts, just in general - I’m okay with the way you rebutted NAF’s vote on you. Slight town.

Baffle, in general - I’m also okay with how you’re rebutting Pleonast’s vote.

Pleonast, just in general (but also post 153) - I’m not okay with how you’re rebutting Baffle. So what if he implied you were less than forthright with your role claim? Why should he just take your word for it? Questioning you, and coming up with possible alternatives, is the whole game. Definite scum tell. By the way, I can explain why the scenario is bad. They can travel, but SO CAN TOWN. We don’t know which is which. There are likely scum already there. If a few other scum travel, along with a few townies, we’re just as likely to lynch town as scum. You’re mistakenly assuming that if they travel, we’ll magically know who all the scum are, even the ones that didn’t travel. Sure, that’s an exaggeration, but I’m not with you on your reasoning.

McGinty, post 155 - My thoughts exactly.[/spoiler]

Some of it’s cryptic, because in order to catch up I just wanted to jot out my thoughts as I read along. Feel free to ask me about anything I might not be 100% clear on.

Based on what I’ve currently read, I’m feeling that Pleonast and Wolverine are the two standouts. For now, I’m gonna Vote Pleonast. Wolverine’s post definitely bothers me, but Pleo beats him on volume of posts that bother me. I fully admit I could be falling into a ‘Lynch the loud’ bias, and it’s something I’m going to keep in mind.

159

I wasn’t saying that.
I was saying it would be stupid to vote for, say, Cookies for being a lurker toDay…when, in fact, she can’t post toDay.

This is for Astral too since she’s “not digging” my full role claim.

For one, Pleonast did right before me. If I had known PMs could be posted, I’d have posted mine from the start, first most likely. That’s just how I tend to play sometimes.

For two, you (and others) have said things like “I will automatically find people traveling more suspicious than others” (you said something like this in post number 84) while, at the same time, making a foolhardy assumption (IMO) that all people who stayed put are probably vanilla while Dual Citizens were anything but Vanilla (at least that’s how I read your post).

Obviously, since I started out the game by traveling, this doesn’t sit well with me–people already suspicious of travelers–so I figured I’d come right out with it what I was…plain, vanilla, Dual Citizen.

160

Fair enough. As long as you agree that it’s equally fair for me to find it suspicious, based on what I currently know.