Ok, contrary it is. Nice of you to let the board know who you are - I’m out.
(At this time, Bruce Jenner has not chosen to publicly identify as a woman and so E! News will continue to refer to him as Bruce and use male pronouns, until he indicates otherwise.) That is from “Bruce Jenner: We Answer Your Tough Questions.” by E!
Hereis an article pointing out Bruce has said himself that he doesn’t care what pronoun you use, because they all refer to him.
In the Vanity Fair article, the last source from his mouth, he says “Bissinger apologizes to Jenner for repeated pronoun confusion and asks whether she is sensitive about it. “I don’t really get hung up,” she tells him. “A guy came in the other day and I was fully dressed—it’s just habit, I said, ‘Hi, Bruce here,’ and I went, Oh fuck, it ain’t Bruce, I was screwing up doing it.”
Furthermore, he only refers to himself as “Bruce.”
also, what about this: what about “he started his transition 30 years ago,” you all said. He’s been identifying as a woman for decades at this point. Right?
so why release a statement saying “oh i’m a he still?” why even do that at all? If he identified as a woman, what would make him as of four days ago release a statement saying “call me ‘he’?”
That’s from April 27. From that same article: “If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun is preferred, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person’s appearance and gender expression.” Since that article was published Jenner has publicly appeared as a woman - Caitlyn Jenner. That same source (eonline.com) now features two articles that refer to Jenner as “her.”
At this point, people’s insistence on using the pronoun “he” tells us more about them than it does about Caitlyn Jenner.
trailer for reality show
What a privileged society we live in where people get in arguments over what goddamn pronoun to use when describing a transgender millionaire who appears on magazine covers.
Talk about bread and circuses.
Honestly, the fact that a man can dress up like a woman and announce that he’s a woman, and this is immediately respected with no questions asked, is strange to me. I don’t understand why this has become the standard for trans sensitivity, and I’ve never heard a good explanation for it.
Because it helps the transgender individual, and harms no one. The alternative is to use terminology that is painful to the transgender individual, because it makes that person feel belittled and misunderstood, and if they’ve made clear the gender with which they identify, it’s a deliberate attempt to deny them that identification. Sensitive, thoughtful people don’t insult other people.
This denies the existence of liars, con artists, and crazy people.
By the time people complete their transition, they’re generally cleared of lying about it or trying to run a con, and if they’re crazy, it’s because of how they’ve been mistreated or that they haven’t been allowed to transition. Allowing them to transition and change the words people use to refer to them helps them to regain their sanity and their lives.
What do you mean by “complete their transition?” Surgery? What about when someone like Bradley Manning announces he’s a woman, and the feminine pronouns immediately start being used. How do the journos writing about her know she’s not bullshitting them?
I’m not sure what you mean. We’re not talking here about people just dressing as the opposite gender. We’re talking about people who have actually come out as transgender. I’m not aware of any type of con game that involves coming out as transgender. And mentally ill people with gender identity issues deserve just as much dignity and respect as anyone else.
Well, there’s that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing. Or, they could do their jobs as investigative journalists and dig deeper to see if there’s more to the story than is stated. Or, people could just call bullshit on other people’s happiness.
Also, cite for people using the guise of transitioning to perform some sort of con?
And, to answer your question, “completing their transition” within the context of this thread means “the point at which they say people should switch pronouns.” No surgery needed.
Do you believe that no one who has come out as transgender has lied about it, or was mistaken? Is it your contention that that never happens?
You can’t think of any reason why a reality TV celebrity would want to bring attention to themselves?
And the mentally ill certainly deserve dignity, but I don’t think a standard that unconditionally respects what they say and allows them to hide in plain sight is wise.
This, absolutely. Because maybe we heard a lot about the Kardashians - and I am as sick of them as anyone - but I really didn’t hear a lot about Bruce Jenner.
And now that it’s Caitlyn, good for her. I’m glad she came out loud and proud. I’m glad she feels confident enough to do so. I can’t imagine what it would have been like even 10, 20 years ago.
Me personally, it floored me to be reminded who Bruce Jenner was. I hadn’t thought about Bruce for most of my adult life but I heard plenty as a child. I mean, a truly amazing athlete, right? It doesn’t change the respect I had for Bruce Jenner now that she is Caitlyn.
I think it’s wonderful, the whole thing. I do have a quick question. When someone comes out like this, do we refer to her before and after the transition as different genders? For example, would I refer to Bruce Jenner as he and Caitlyn as she? Or is it she all the way?
Pretend your parents named you “Engelbert”. Yet, you feel this name doesn’t really work for you. You ask your friends and the people at work if they could call you “Steve” instead.
No deception is intended on your part, you just feel more like a “Steve” than an “Engelbert”.
I think that the people who would still choose to call you Engelbert against your wishes are massive assholes.
what questions do you think it would be appropriate to ask? Of course we should respect someone who has struggled with this decision. I can’t imagine anyone reaching that point without a great deal of soul searching.
I couldn’t just announce that. I’d have to actually get my name legally changed. Otherwise, if I’m just decreeing a new name for myself and expecting everyone to go along with it, that makes ME the asshole.
So would it be fair to say that you’re making assumptions out of a desire to be tolerant and inclusive?
That doesn’t make any sense at all. Of course you can just announce it. You only need to get the government involved if you want to make sure the government uses the name you want. Socially, you can call yourself whatever you want, and basic manners is to go along with it. I can’t see any way that could possibly make you an asshole.