I didn’t really expect a direct and honest response from you. It is bizarre that someone who apparently feels as strongly as you do does not have the courage of your own opinions, but must hide behind “Others think that this is so”.
I will not speculate on what people in a given region supposedly think, and then refuse to provide cites to back my statements, which is your modus operandi.
Boo boo, I agree with you.
I see it as follows, it is hard for alot of the dopers to relate the killings to a personal experience, hence the Bali bombings related to 11th September, and got a hell of a lot more news coverage. Not that the average person wouldn’t feel saddened by the news, but it wouldn’t have the same impact on peoples lives.
I, too, believe the US had no business initiating the war with Iraq, but goddamn, what a narrow and parochial view you have, sailor. The simple fact is, that bombings and assassinations and torture and general mayhem were present prior to the war, just as they’re present now. How you can possibly conclude that the war is the causal agent for events transpiring prior to its inception is beyond me. It’s not only completely illogical, it’s quite stupid.
Untrue, Saddamite Iraq is better characterised as orderly and oppressive. It sustained a large and stable middle class, universities and professional services.
In fact the possibility of civil war stems from the likelihood that the only way of maintaining a unified Iraq was through strongarm military government. With that demolished anarchy is now loosed.
If stupidity is in the air one might associate that scent with the proposition that the war and occupation are not causally connected to mayhem and the rest of that exciting vocabulary.
I do not believe the chaos and violence in Iraq prior to the invasion was anything as bad as what it is now but even if it was (which I do not admit) the present occupation of Iraq lacks all legitimacy and that makes it worse even if the USA could claim their government in Iraq is no worse than Saddam Hussein’s (which I do not accept). I believe the USA has no legitimacy in Iraq and that the invasion and occupation made things worse in the country and the region (and the world). But if you want to say George Bush is no worse in governing Iraq as Saddam Hussein, by all means, be my guest. I still don’t think it is something to be particularly proud of.
No one that I know of, not a single person on this board, even those in favor of the war, has ever referred to Iraqi civilians as “collateral damage”. If you believe my statement false, link to a example where this term was used and prove me wrong. No one in the US government, to my knowledge, has ever referred to Iraqis as “collateral damage” in the recent conflict. If you believe your claim that this phrase has been used is correct, produce a citation showing it to be so.
Once again, as so many times before, you tar all Americans with the same, very broad brush. Tell me, sir, why do you consistently refuse to acknowledge any of the many statments against the war that have been made by Americans on this board?
There is no question in my mind that you, Aldebaran, sir, are a close-minded bigot. You are precisely the same degree of bigot as anyone who would actually support the ridiculous notion that Iraqis are “brownies” unworthy of concern.
You are saying nothing has changed? Bombs were going off in the crowded streets? Religious sects were killing each other? Foreigners infiltrated the country and perpetrated attacks?
I am quite under the impression that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a country, like many other dictatorships, which did provide social order and where people were generally safe as long as they did not engage in politics against their government. Sorry but I just do not believe the notion that the Iraqi police went around terrorizing random people for no reason, pulling babies from incubators and burying pregnant women alive just for the fun of it. It was a ruthless dictatorship just like many others and it has been replaced by something worse which is chaos and anarchy. The Iraqi people are, in fact, no freer today than they were under SH and, in general, they were safer then than they are now. And all that as a direct consequence of the American invasion and occupation. the US government wants to sell the notion that as long as their government is talking about organizing some future elections the rest does not matter. It said the same thing in Vietnam but the people prefer food and security to some promise of formal democracy.
But very especially: The numbers of Iraqis killed by Americans has not changed? How can you say that? Thousands of Iraqis have been killed directly by American forces. Don’t you think that might generate some resentment? ’
I didn’t say such thing but, in any case, what I say is very irrelevant. Whether I blame president Bush or not is irrelevant, what counts is what (mistakenly or not) the Iraqis and the Muslims of the world believe and it sure doesn’t look to me like the invasion and occupation have endeared the west to them. Much to the contrary, it seems to me like anti-western radicalism is on the rise and I can understand why. If the people of any country were very supportive of their government who was sending people to kill me I do not think I would have much sympathy for those people.
And right you are, according to this correction in today’s Times:
An article yesterday about the stabbing of a woman in her Bronx home gave an erroneous account from the police about the condition of her body. The New York medical examiner’s office said yesterday that the victim, Betzaida Eva Madera, died with her heart in her body, and that it was not removed by her killer.
Aldebaron, I’m having a hard time believing you are for real.
After being around here for a while, do you honestly believe that there are no or very few dopers without empathy for Iraqi bomb victims?
I’ve come across very few muslim rants on the SDMB. I’ve come across a lot of Bush rants though. What does that tell you about us dopers ?
And what about the sacrifice that the relatives of dopers are making to help ensure a better Iraq. Are the American soldiers not lifting a finger?
Oh please. Cite me a reference to when ever Iraqis were referred to as brownies. Trying to start a race war?
Lets go through your points one by one.
What weapons/amunition are they missing? You do recall that that the best equiped military force in the world were suffering casualties on a daily basis before the perps started focusing on the Iraqis.Are you suggesting that there is a weapon that can thwart a roadside bomb or a suicide attack?
And you think that can be readily fixed? Are you suggesting a wall like they are trying to build in Israel to keep out suicide bombers. Did you know that there are millions of illegal immigrants in America? Just how would you fix this problem?
And most of all Aldebaron, answer me this. Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly believe that it just may be possible that Israel is behind the violence?
Do you believe that the insurgents want the Americans to stay?
Yes. You are extremely out of line. I’m sick of sanctimonious assholes berating people (and me, by extension) because I’m not posting on what they think I should be posting.
Maybe I’m devastated by some other tragedy in the world. There are others, if you hadn’t noticed, and maybe I should slam you because it’s a sad reflection on you that you’re not posting on, say, the abduction and rape of an 11-year old girl here in Brooklyn this week. Or the discovery of a body here in Brooklyn. Or all those poor defenseless animals being slaughtered for meat. Or whatever I might happen to be upset about at the moment.
Or maybe I’ve got some personal tragedies to deal with at the moment, and that’s making it hard for me to devote what you think would be sufficient attention to what’s happening in Iraq right now.
Stop being so self-righteous. You’ll be happier. I know I will.
The Shi’ites & the Sunnis have been at each others throats since before anyone here was born. American GIs are targets of convenience at best, and when they leave, the sectarian muslims will back to killing each other in short order. I don’t have proof that the Sunnis are behind this large-scale massacre, but doesn’t anyone else here think its strange that it was aimed solely at Shi’ite targets? Bathists would want American casualties as well. Then again, perhaps I’m just imagining the Shi’ite/Sunni war of the 1980s.
A dollar says there is a brutal reprisal against Sunnis, either in Iraq or a ‘neighboring country’ inside of 4 months (three months planning/training/ asset placement, one month ‘window of opportunity’ searching).
Yes. You are extremely out of line. I’m sick of sanctimonious assholes berating people (and me, by extension) because I’m not posting on what they think I should be posting.
Maybe I’m devastated by some other tragedy in the world. There are others, if you hadn’t noticed, and maybe I should slam you because it’s a sad reflection on you that you’re not posting on, say, the abduction and rape of an 11-year old girl here in Brooklyn this week. Or the discovery of a body here in Brooklyn. Or all those poor defenseless animals being slaughtered for meat. Or whatever I might happen to be upset about at the moment.
Or maybe I’ve got some personal tragedies to deal with at the moment, and that’s making it hard for me to devote what you think would be sufficient attention to what’s happening in Iraq right now.
Stop being so self-righteous. You’ll be happier. I know I will.
Speaking of sanctimonious assholes. . .
LMM, calm down. Nobody has mentioned you particularly. I think Boo Boo Foo is making a valid point and you can add your comments or opinions but calling him names is out of line. He has not mentioned anyone in particular and I do think it is a valid point to make regarding the board as a group and probably about Americans and westerners in general. Yes, we are preocuppied with our own lives but it definitely says something about us that we have such limited interest in such tragic events in which we (as a group) bear such direct responsibility and are, to a certain extent, indirect participants. It is a matter for reflection. If you have your reasons fine. Nobody is accusing you of anything. You may carry on with your life but the facts pointed out in the OP remain.
Such as yourself, fer instance.
No, I didn’t say “nothing” has changed; that would be as stupid as what you’ve implied. Obviously things have “changed” since the invasion - and yeah, probably for the worse. But yep, all those things in your list also occurred in Iraq prior to Bush’s illegimate invasion. You seem to be attempting to lay everything bad that has happened there since the invasion at Bush’s feet. That may very wll be true to some extent, but these exact things also occurred prior to the invasion. Surely there are historical forces that precede Bush’s war that are at least partly responsible.
Or perhaps you are saying that Bush’s invasion has unleashed these historical forces where the deposed Saddam kept them in check to a certain extent. Again, you may be correct. But the methods used to restrain those forces were at least equally as atrocious as the car bombs are now. And they were certainly more efficacious.
Well, much like your own protest, I didn’t. I didn’t say anything like that. We were speaking of car bombs, and suicide bombings, and the atrocities of terrorist groups. I said not a word about the actions of the Americans there, only that I didn’t think we sould be there at all.
Again, I neither said, nor implied anything of the kind. That is a totally different subject. But hey, you wanna build strawmen, go right ahead. Just don’t expect me to go tilting at 'em.
Well, OK, the language I used was strong, but I stand by the sentiment. There’s always somone who is ready to point out that others are horrible because they don’t appear to feel as strongly as the pointer-outer about some issue or other. And usually that person (Boo Foo Foo in this case) doesn’t in fact have a clue as to what anyone else thinks.