Let me confuse the matter even more, no that I’ve given the matter some thought. (novel idea)
I think the term “Jap car” is mildy offensive. Why? Because it seems to me to carry some slight stigma about the type of car and the way we were made. Especially when they were a relavitely new thing it was used in a not-too-kind way (at least it was in Holland at the time). It used to convey a not very cool, usually small car that was cheaply produced in Japan. It had these stereotypical overtones of the cars being mass-produced by lots of obedient low earning Japanese workers. It was mainly caused by envy because they produced good cars at a lower price. IMO if it’s a slur at all, it is in this roundabout way, as the perception of what the cars are like is tied up with what the people that produce them are supposed to be like.
Seeing as you specifically asked me a question and I’ve only just got back, I’ll answer.
Yes.
This is a word which I have heard in use in Ireland.
As I said and many, many others have also said, in a multiculural society, like America, the rules are different from those you find in a society which to all intents and statistical purposes comprises only one race, like Ireland.
[QUOTE=blowero
Huh? I think you lost me. The word “Nippon” is pronounced nee-pone. The words “clip on” are pronounced klip ahn. They do not rhyme. The derogatory word “Nip” is pronounced nip. So I was saying that if one pronounces Nippon as nip-ahn, it might possibly be offensive to some, because it sounds partially like the derogatory word Nip. I wouldn’t see it that way, but maybe some people would. They don’t rhyme because you’re in New Zealand; they rhyme because you are using a Western pronounciation of a Japanese word. I think we are in agreement, but it’s hard to tell from the jumbled way you present your thoughts.[/QUOTE]
Dreadfully sorry for the jumbled way I presented my thoughts. That would be the 3 glasses of wine.
It is a good thing I only posted under the influence instead of jumping in my Jap import and barreling over the Nippon Clip On ( that does rhyme in Kiwi-English…visit sometime, we talk funny but we are kinda nice)
Originally Posted by blowero
Huh? I think you lost me. The word “Nippon” is pronounced [i
nee-pone*. The words “clip on” are pronounced klip ahn. They do not rhyme. The derogatory word “Nip” is pronounced nip. So I was saying that if one pronounces Nippon as nip-ahn, it might possibly be offensive to some, because it sounds partially like the derogatory word Nip. I wouldn’t see it that way, but maybe some people would. They don’t rhyme because you’re in New Zealand; they rhyme because you are using a Western pronounciation of a Japanese word. I think we are in agreement, but it’s hard to tell from the jumbled way you present your thoughts.
OH DEAR!..wine again. I feel the desperate urge to be pedantic but I can’t explain myself. Let me just say this “ahn” in NO way represents the way we pronounce on. Kiwi English is more like (AHHHHHHH i have sat here for several minutes trying to think how kiwi on sounds to American ears) “aw-n” then “ahn”. Though that is not it either.
My mum hosts foreign language students and I once had a very entertaining time telling a Japanese guy that my mum was at work, “weeeeeeeerk” is what he heard me say evidently.
I apologise for the hijack and will go back to deep thinking about how “ahn” is not the same as on (I’m sitting here making noises much like a chimp…thank you for that)
This is a topic that I’ve seen argued on more than one message board.
My reason for considering ‘Jap’ an unacceptable word is simple: the Japanese people I’ve met consider it to be offensive (in both contexts).
I believe that what makes a word a slur or not is whether or not the relevent group takes offense at it. Whether the word is short for an acceptable word doesn’t enter into it.
If someone can show that the Japanese in Ireland, NZ, or anywhere else don’t mind the use of the term, then I’ll accept this as just being an oversensitive American thing.
I know it is a slur, but because it is an abbreviation, I can see where some people might not think so. It was a commonly used word in WWII, and I think people from that era are probably the ones who perpetuate it.
I’m sure japanese people in NZ do not want to be called Japs. I am sure they would find it offensive. NZ has a huge immigrant population and almost all NZers are sensitive to how people from other cultures feel.
Reguardless of that some things become ingrained in a language. What you call clingfilm or plastic wrap is called Gladwrap here, it doesn’t matter what brand it is. It is known as gladwrap.
NZ had very strict import laws on EVERYTHING (well not laws but taxes) till the late 80’s early 90’s. NZers used to go on holiday to Australia to buy a stereo bacause after paying the duty it was still wayyyyyyyy cheaper to that.
Cars were the worst. We are a popualtion of (NOW) 4 million. In the 80’s NZ looked like a car museum. Morris 1100’s ruled the roads :D. If someone owned a new car (as in used but they just bought it) they were flash. If they owned a BRAND NEW car they were some kind of frigging millionaire.
I was out of the country at the time, but sometime in the late 80’s the then
govt (Labour…like now :D…our Democrats if you will) began to relax import duties. They began to let cars Japanese people had finished with come into the country. They were newer then Morries and had flash things like electric windows and cost about the same as a Morry/Falcon/Holden. These marvelous machines came from Japan.
Soon flash cars were everywhere and the question began to form on neighbours and friends lips “Is that a Jap import?”. It was a crucial question. If it was a jap import then they got it cheap cause it had been driven around japan for several years. If it was NZ new they were still flash buggers so you still went “wow”.
Now, and this is a guess, about 50% of the cars on NZ roads started there lives driving on Japanese roads. There have been loads of scandals about odometers being wound back before/during/after importation. A NZ new car is worth more cause the history is more well known. A Jap import will be flasher…with flasher stereos and AC etc.
“Is it a Jap import” has become the most commonly asked questions when buying a car. Is it a Japanese car just takes to long to say ( a recent university study into the English language found NZers speak faster thenany other English speakers…Aussies were second to last and americans were last…maybe that is why)
I live in Auckland. Auckland is a HUGELY Asian city. If I go up to a Japanese person and call them a Jap they MIGHT be offended (though Aussies/Ockers…never seem to mind being shortened) they have that right…and have the right to say I was offensive but “Jap import” is part of our language now.
As far as multicultural goes in the last census there were over 200 ethnicities living in NZ. With a population of 4 million. I hardly think we need lessons in being multicultural.
Sorry - just finishing work haven’t had time to read whole thread. Will tomorrow.
Anyway I’m Irish and generally people don’t call japanese people japs here. I’ve only ever heard 2 or 3 people use it when referring to people and they were all old people who probably watched too many WW11 propaganda movies…
Therefore calling a person a ‘jap’ would be seen as a racial slur here but cars? - never made the connection.
I have heard people refer to japanese cars as ‘jap-imports’ though but it doesn’t have ANY connotations of racism (here) as far as I’m aware and surely the connotations and implications of what you say are most important. It’s just an abbreviation like ‘Aussie’ as someone mentioned before or even ‘US’ instead of ‘American’. After all in my cursory glance over the thread before I posted someone pointed out that they’ve heard people use the seemingly inoffensive descriptive ‘foreigner’ in a derogatory way…
Exactly. A word becomes a slur from the context in which it is used, not because of something inherent in the word itself. There is nothing inherent in the word “nigger” that makes it a slur; it is a slur because that’s how people use it. That’s why it’s so stupid for people to keep saying “Jap is just short for Japanese”. So what? That has nothing to do with it.
I understand that. But what you are not understanding is that “It’s short for Japanese” is irrelevant. The connotations of the word determine if it’s offensive, not whether it’s “short” for something. I don’t know why you keep saying that; it doesn’t make any sense.
It’s now abundantly clear that people in certain countries like Ireland and Australia use the term “Jap bike” and generally don’t consider it offensive. But you need to drop this ridiculous “It’s short for Japanese” thing - it’s got fuck all to do with anything.
That’s not rude, it’s just wrong. I did not say, ‘Its wrong in America, so it has to be wrong everywhere else’. I never said it. I never implied it. I never even thought it.
You DO understand that GaWd lives IN America, right? So comments I made to him would not fall under the category of “It’s wrong in America, so it has to be wrong everywhere else”. I did say it’s wrong in America, and I stand by that, and repeat my challenge for anyone to find a significant mainstream use of the term “Jap bike” in the U.S., e.g. television, radio, newspaper, or even a motorcycle shop that uses the word in its name.
But if you contend that I claimed that it therefore has to be wrong everywhere else, then either prove it or STFU.
Actually, y’know what? I think we’ve established that “Jap bike” is not cool to say in the U.S., but there are obviously people in Ireland and other places that have never considered it offensive. Since the question has been answered, perhaps Coldie can close this thread, as it seems to be degenerating into misunderstandings and hurt feelings. And since I just posted stuff, go ahead and get the last word in if you feel you must.
I think it’s obvious that it IS relevant that it’s also short for Japanese.
On the one hand, we have a word that developed in two ways: Jap. One connotation is obviously a slur, and came from the US (and possibly other countries that were in direct conflict with Japan during WWII). The other connotation developed when people started using the same term to refer to Japanese products, such as “Jap bikes”. I think we all agree that at the very least these people intend no harm.
On the other hand, you use the example of a word that I personally know in only one extremely bad connotation: n*****. And then you go on to say that it’s only a bad word because that’s how people use it.
NO. The word n***** was invented as a slur, derives from negro, and to my knowledge has never been used in a positive way in any widespread way, unless you count black folks using it amongst themselves (in which case I STILL find it debatable whether the connotation is anywhere near positive).
Language is not a static concept: it evolves. It’s possible for an erstwhile offensive term to morph into something harmless, or for a term to be either harmless or offensive depending on context. To me, the term “Jap” is an example of a context dependant term, and the word “n*****” is clearly NOT. Who knows, one day it might be, if rappers keep using it as a nom de guerre. But I know more black people who object to that usage than who condone it.
That’s the difference.
Furthermore, you insist that because bike shops don’t advertise with terms like “Jap bike”, it must be an offensive term. I submit that a bike shop owner doesn’t want to bite the hand that feeds him, and is just avoiding potential controversy. That doesn’t negate the fact that “Jap bike” is an oft used inoffensively intended term used by bikers. I guess perhaps the question is whether the majority of Japanese or Japanese Americans would object to said usage, but how can we verify that, other than by the odd anecdote in this thread? I’ll say this about the Japanese: they’re not exactly known for their PC terminology when it comes to people of different ethnicity themselves. Chances are a term like “Jap bike” wouldn’t offend them at all. Whether this applies to Japanese Americans, I cannot say.
I’ll close this thread if you want me to, but if you have anything to add, go right ahead. Wouldn’t want to look like I was trying to get the last word in.
Who the fuck is “we”? I don’t think “we” have established anything in this thread. I think you and a small handfull of posters have decided that it is offensive. I and others(in the US and internationally), have mentioned that it doesn’t seem to be a carnal fucking sin unless used as a pointed insult.
I would never call a Japanese person “jap”. I would never call a black man “nigger”. I would never call a Chinese person “chink”, or a Japanese or asian person “nip”. Though I have, on occasion, called myself a kike around friends and family in jest.
Now. Contextually, I will refer to certain things as Jap-something. Japanimation. Jap-bike. Jap-car. By your objection to this, I feel as if you also feel certain other statements and descriptors should not be used. Chinese food. **Black **man. **White **man. **Japanese **animation.
I am guessing you’ll say it’s because it’s a derogatory or offensive term when taken out of context that makes it unacceptable to use as a descriptor. I am telling you, as a person who had someone in his family interred in WWII for being Japanese, neither myself nor his son consider it a slur when used in this manner. Other people I know don’t either. Why don’t we just ban all adjectives?*
Only someone who is trying to find offense would put up this much fuss and try to make everyone else conform to his PC bullshit. And that’s something I never do-accuse someone of being PC. That’s mainly because I get to hear people all day long in my office whining about how the “PC Police” are affecting their lives so that they cannot use any of the above slurs, or insult women in the woprkplace, or gave a job to a black man, Etc. I find this to be a pathetic cop-out.
I was the one to originally bring up the “chink-bike”. I still don’t see the logic of why people would find the same word offensive when refering to a people and inoffense when reffering to an object the people made. GaWd “context” argument is weak; “but I didn’t mean it that way” isn’t a defense of the use of a racial epithet. “I meant wetback in the kindest possible way” ain’t gonna win you any friends among Mexicans. "Coldfire’s etymology argument suffers from the same flaw (I didn’t mean “jap”, I meant “jap”), and coldie throws in some irrelevant obfuscation to flesh it out. Neither hold up when you shine the harsh light of logic on them.
I was right there with you, blowero, pointing out the faults behind the rationales for “jap” being offensive as a noun, but inoffensive as a descriptor. But then I remembered something, which I will get to in a second . As Tir Tinuviel pointed out, the English language isn’t logical. It doesn’t need inept explanations by GaWd and Coldfire to explain why it’s inconsistent. It doesn’t need any explanations at all. It is what it is, and that’s all.
What I remembered was something a childhood Korean friend once said after I called him Oriental: “A person is Asian, a rug is Oriental”.
( that does rhyme in Kiwi-English…visit sometime, we talk funny but we are kinda nice)
(I’m sitting here making noises much like a chimp…thank you for that)