What the Hell was that for?
I just said that it’s possible for “jap” to be offensive when reffering to a person and yet still inoffensive when reffering to an object. This is damn near what you have been saying all along.
You’re either an asshole, stupid, or both. I’m leaning towards the third of the three, because replying with only a rolleyes smilie shows a desire to insult, coupled with an inability to form a complete thought that could be written down in actual words.
I hardly ever get involved in Pit discussions, but I am curious about something.
You say that “Jap” is less offensive because it comes from a shortening of the word “Japanese”, but isn’t the word “Paki” a shortened form of “Pakistani”? And isn’t “Paki” considered offensive?
You missed the third option. Exasperated. A sarcastic eye-rolling. If you were insulted by the little smiley then you’re taking this a little too seriously.
So after an entire rambling paragraph about how my explanation and coldfire’s explanation “ain’t gonna win us no friends”, a Tir Tinuviel quote about the English language being inconsistent is supposed to clear it all up? It didn’t pal, sorry.
If that was indeed an odd way of saying “Jap isn’t necessarily always considered a racial epithet”, then I’ll accept the crown of stupid, by all means.
I disagree.
You know I agree with that - I’ve said it over and over.
Well it IS. Tell me what is inherently bad about n— It obviously comes from “Niger” as a way of referring to people from that country, just like we say “Aussies” are from Australia.
It was used exclusively to refer to black people in the U.S. in slavery times, and the people who used it didn’t think they were doing anything wrong by using that word. And “Jap” certainly isn’t positive either; at best it’s only neutral, so I don’t see the point of mentioning that.
You seem to be arguing that such connotations are entirely dependent on usage, which belies your insistence that it being “short for” something has anything to do with it. And that was my point. Being “short for” something has nothing to do with it.
-----------O.K., now this is an entirely different subject. We’re talking about the U.S. now------------
Huh? If the word is not offensive, then it would not generate controversy. If people object to a word, then it is ipso facto offensive, is it not? I mean, think about how ridiculous you’re being. You’re in effect saying: “Nobody uses the word on TV, radio, newspapers, or signs because it would piss people off…but it’s not offensive.” Give me a break.
Again, the litmus test for whether a word is offensive should not be whether the person USING the word is offended, but rather if the OBJECT of that usage is offended. I mean, you’re not gonna say, “I’m white, and ‘Jap’ doesn’t bother me, so it’s o.k. to use it?”, are you?
Again, you ought to judge it by how Japanese-Americans feel, not by how non-Japanese bikers feel.
Maybe you could do a little research if you really don’t understand the issue in the U.S.; I found this interview just from a quick google search:
http://www.booknotes.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1669
Does that help at all? I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is pretty liberal and has a large Asian population, so maybe I’m a little more tuned into the issues than the average person, but sometimes I feel like people are so busy defending what they say that they never really take a time out and truly consider whether they are hurting someone else’s feelings.
But “Oriental” is not a hateful slur like “Jap”. It is simply an outdated word that reflects back to a time when Asians were looked upon as subservient to whites. Oriental is to Jap as Negro is to Nigger. We can still say “Negro spiritual”, but we don’t call a person a Negro. But we never say “Nigger spiritual”. Similarly, we say “Oriental rug”, but never would say “Jap rug”.
Anyway, this is all academic, because I think we have established that Irish people don’t intend offense when they use the J- word for inanimate objects.
Is this some sort of joke, or are you really that dense?
All about the n-word. There are two possible explanations given about the origins of the word: it either derives from the Spanish Negro (meaning black), or the Latin Niger, meaning same. Now, the country Niger may have been named so by colonists because of the skin colour of the people for all I know, but that’s putting the cart before the horse. N*gg** is offensive, and always has been. Incidently, someone from Niger is called a Nigerien.
I’m obviously arguing both points. Whether “Jap” is offensive depends on context. Furthermore, the fact that “Jap” can be inoffensive has been thoroughly demonstrated by the fact that people from numerous countries have attested, in this thread, that it is used as a short version of Japanese rather than a slur where they’re from. In addition, to get things even more confusing, the two reasonings are actually intertwined: BECAUSE “Jap” is also short for Japanese, there IS a second context in which the word can be used. And it’s inoffensive.
Man, you’re thick. I stated that a particular term is used inoffensively within a particular group (in this case bikers), but might not be as acceptable to the rest of a population because of other connotations completely unrelated to the meaning of the term within the particular group.
An example? Hell, why not.
Let’s say I live in the UK, and I run a tobacco shop. As you might know, a common slang word in the UK for a cigarette is “fag”. Now, I would like to name my tobacco shop “The Burning Fag”. Good idea, or not?
Of course not. The reason that this is not a good plan is not that the word “fag” used as slang for cigarette is bad: the term is widely used in that context, and doesn’t cause any offense that I know of. But there is of course another meaning of the word, which IS very offensive. So, as a wise businessman, I will not put “fag” in writing on my store front, because context cannot be derived from the written word as easily as it can be from the spoken. “Can I nick a fag, mate?” is something you can say to almost anyone, straight or gay. But taken out of context, “fag” has the potential to cause offense.
CONTEXT. It’s today’s code word.
Damn, it’s so simple when you think about it.
I appreciate the article, and understand why that guy’s upset. I’m just not convinced that that goes for every person of Japanese descent (even thought this guy is actually from Chinese descent). FWIW, I was riding with a group of people here in Holland last year, and one of them was a Dutchman of Japanese descent (IIRC, his parents moved here from Japan, but he was born here). He called Japenese bikes “Jap bikes” himself - well, the Dutch translation thereof, but it amounts to the same. He didn’t think the term was offensive at all.
So now we have your quote and my anecdote. Which one’s the truth? The answer’s probably something along the lines of “it depends on the person you’re dealing with”. I’m all for prevention of hurt feelings, and I understand why the gentleman in the article you linked to is upset by the use of the term “Jap bikes” - even though he isn’t Japanese, but Chinese.
Eh, I could bring out the argument again that America is just a more PC place, and therefore people might take offense more easily at something that’s considered acceptable elsewhere. But at this stage, I doubt you’re even reading anything I say. And if you are, you’ll likely just dismiss it again. What’s the point?
I would imagine that this is because the place where the term"Paki" is offensive is britain. Britain has a huge population of Pakaistanis and very few Japanese. Paki is a term used by bigots to describe the people around them. Jap is a term used to describe products from a place.
I don’t know if “Coconuts” is offensive in America or Britain or anywhere else but it is here. It is because we have a huge Polynesian population. Some bright spark bigot back in the 60’s decided that Coconut was what bigots would call them. It is now and always will be an offensive term. “Hori” is what Mr bigoty bastard decided to call the Maori (though that is very outdated) I know for a fact that that is not an offensive term anywhere else in the world. Guess why? Because this is where Maoris live. No one here was ever called a nigger (ok unless you count the hip hop genration who seem to think its ok as a greeting…wonder where they learnt that) but we know nigger is offensive because of television etc.
Jap import is a car. It is not used to describe a person but a car. Every country has it’s own selection of ways to offend someone. If we are concerned with what is offensive somewhere else we won’t have the energy left to fight the nasty shit in our own backyards.
<extremely brief digression>
calm kiwi, I would love to sponsor you if you need someone to grab a credit card and secure those posting privileges. Drop me an email. I’m an Aussie living in the US and while I don’t post much, I do like to see voices from the pacific rim area on the board. </extremely brief digression
Good point *calmkiwi.
The word ‘tinker’ was a racial slur here too (not used that much anymore as far as I’m aware) against the travelling community or ‘travellers’. I can’t imagine it causes offense in too many other places.
Now should I have made that bold or italics… Looks like I couldn’t decide 
If anyone thinks the N-word (and the word “darky”) wasn’t used in everyday language as just another descriptive word, I’d suggest you read “Gone With The Wind.” Words change, and what was okay yesterday may be offensive tomorrow.
Since some people find the word in discussion offensive, I’d suggest you use Japanese. I’ve seen more than one person get flamed on theatre boards for using that word to describe a show or cast recordings (and Japan has produced some of the best cast CDS in the world).
The best whats? I’m feeling either thick or tecknologicalickliy deficient (yes alright it is both). Jap imports were the best thing to happen to NZ. Car prices fell through the roof and made electric windows available to the masses (Not this mass though 
I am yet to own one of these mod-con machines). Jap imports changed the way cars were bought and sold in NZ. No one is slagging off the goodness they bought.
This is a primarily American message board but it is not an exclusively American message board. Sometimes foreigners will wander in. If they wipe their feet and don’t go out of their way to abuse the locals, it’s all good isn’t it? Do we have to change how we speak as we wipe our feet? The “N” word is one we all know about. But some words are just accepted parts of speech elsewhere.
I don’t know how many times I have wanted to ask “what the hell is Tylanol” (sp?) it is mentioned often and my reading comprehension tells me it is a medicine. I still don’t know what it is though. I let this drift over me though because the people that use that brand name are from a different culture then me and I gain more from the thread then I lose from not understanding that word.
I often change the word I would have used because I realise it was a word that would not have been understood by non Antipodeans. There are some things like “jap import” that are easily understood. If you see someone use a term like that and notice they are a wandering foreigner maybe it is best to give them the benefit of doubt? Yes trolls stroll thru SDMB, but many of us foreign types have been here for ages , Would we deliberatly pick a term that pissed you off? NOPE…we like it here.
When I was a kid calling someone a spoon was about the worst you could do. I have no way of knowing if NZ was the only place this was an insult. I have watched enough American TV and movies to be familar with what not to say there…oddly “jap import” never featured 
In the mean time we muddled along making "jap import’ part of every day language.
Idlewild that is so sweet of you. I will muddle through but thank you so very much!
Sorry blowero, but if you agree that it is the context of the word that defines how it’s interperated, then we’re arguing the same point.
If there is nothing inherently wrong in the word Jap, why are you so upset that people in a country who have never heard it used as a slur are using it in a non-derogatory way?
Actually, there is something inherently insulting in the word “Nigger”, as Coldfire has pointed out.
It’s not stupid for people to say “Jap” is short for “Japanese” because it’s true, it’s the first three letters of the word.
The same as I consider “Kat” to be an abbreviation of my name “Katharina”. If someone living the other side of the world suddenly decided to use the word “Kat” to indicate something repugnant, I wouldn’t change my name even if I was aware of this alternative use. Kat is short for Katharina not sub-life. Jap is short for Japanese not sub-life.
I would hazzard a guess - due to the fact I haven’t heard “Jap” used in the UK as an insult - that the word was originally used as an abbreviation and then in some areas came to be used as a slur, and that usage of the word hasn’t filtered through to us yet.
Have you thought that maybe the people that use it offensively are the ones in the wrong, for turning what is a harmless abbreviation into an insult.
Shouldn’t we be trying to educate people not to use the word Jap as an insult in the same way we are trying to educate people not to use the word “Gay” as an insult.
[QUOTE=Coldfire]
Is this some sort of joke, or are you really that dense?
Ya know what, Coldfire? I was trying to be reasonable with you, but you’re just being an asshole, so fuck you. I have nothing further to say to you. Frankly, I think you’re a racist piece of shit.
That’s ok, I’m sure he’ll agree with me when I say that you’re undoubtedly the most linguistically overly-sensitive piece of shit I’ve had an encounter with on the SDMB. Frankly, I don’t care what one of the uber-offenderati thinks on the internet anyways.
A couple more things, and then I will ask again that this thread please be closed. There is no communication going on here. People are just talking past each other, and Coldfire, you’re just keeping this thread open as an excuse to be a twit.
Yes, I know.
I’m not upset about that. I must have said at least 6 times now that I understand that usage differs in other countries. I even put a LINE across the post as a demarcation of where I was talking about the U.S., and not other countries.
No there isn’t. You’ve missed the point.
I never said it was stupid to say Jap is short for Japanese. I said it’s stupid to say that the reason it’s not an insult is because it’s short for Japanese. I mean, c’mon; OF COURSE it’s the first three letters of the word. Did you really come out of this discussion thinking we were arguing about whether Jap is the first three letters of Japanese??? :rolleyes:
But not having heard it used as an insult is an entirely different situation than knowing it’s a slur and using it anyway. You’re conflating our discussion about other countries with our discussion of the U.S.
Yes, you’ve made it abundantly obvious that you don’t care what others think. It really doesn’t bother me that you think I’m sensitive. I consider sensitivity to be an admirable quality.
Sensitivity is admirable, yes. Over-sensitiveness just makes you come off like an insistent whiner. Ironically enough, I’m more often accused of being overly-sensitive to others both on the SDMB in my reactions and in real life.
I simply think you’ve gone beyond the pale on this and you refuse to see anything besides “we have established that such-and-such used in so-and-so a manner is always considered to be a slur. No matter what”. Pardon me if I tell you to eat me.
You are the pit’s official barometer on offensiveness in the U.S. apparently. An expert.
Hell, you’ve even gone on to label coldy a fucking racist due to his position on the use of “jap”. Why you haven’t thrown the racist card out on me yet I’ll never know.
Anywho, I tire of this.
Sam
I actually don’t think you’re a racist; I just think you’re ignorant. You are the only one in this thread who is arguing that it’s o.k. to say “Jap bike” in the U.S.; everyone else is talking about other countries (except that Coldfire seems to have joined your cause now). I KNOW it’s not acceptable. I can’t prove it to you, because you have rendered it unprovable. Any evidence you see, you just dismiss as “oversensitive whining”. I can point out how Japanese Americans are offended by it, and how the word is never used in writing or in media, but you’ll just dismiss it all. See, in Australia, for example, the shops actually use the word in their name. That’s pretty good evidence that it’s commonplace, and probably not offensive to a lot of people. You can’t show that in the U.S., but you just dismiss it.
I can’t prove it’s offensive any more than I can prove that n----- or ch–k or goo- or ki-- or sp-c is offensive, but I know they are.
Meanwhile, you just confuse the issue here, and dopers from other countries wrongly think I’m criticizing them, which I am not.
I have nothing to say except that I’m amazed that this thread sprouted from my simple dig at a board rule.