Dubhchobhlaigh
I’ve stared at it, tried to sound it out and came up with something like “duvhovley”(
???)
Disclaimer: I don’t actually speak Irish.
I believe that the “bh” is generally silent when “broad” (i.e. preceded or followed by an open vowel, i.e. a, o, or u).
So I assume something like [du xo li].
But you should probably wait for someone who knows what the hell they’re talking about.
The one bit of info I had going into this was that “bh” sounds like a “v”, but I hadn’t heard about the silent rule around vowels. Wait - what about the name “Siobhan”?
Hmmmmm…
Since this is a linguistic thread, and someone is already using IPA, I think the Wikipedia article on IPA for Irish might be useful.
As for the question itself, the article Irish phonology might be helpful, but it seems rather complicated.
I agree, the Irish Phonology Wiki page looks complicated. I had tried that before turning to the wisdom of the Dope:)
The “ch” in the middle was mostly what was tripping me up.
After checking the IPA page, I learned that it’s a “Voiceless velar fricative”. Apparently this is like the sound in “loch” (makes sense)
So then,
Duv-kov-ley (?) that seems even weirder!
Yeah, that’s the article I used.
I do have some familiarity with Scots Gaelic, so I’m not totally blind going into this. (I somehow ended up being the diction coach when my choir recorded a Gaelic piece.) Unfortunately I don’t really know the niggling details, and Irish is different enough to be confusing.
Yeah, I’m not sure how Siobhan fits into that rule.
Again, we should probably find somebody who knows something (paging An Gadai).
ETA: I guess “silent” isn’t really right. It’s more of a [w]. But in the middle of a word, it’s going to be effectively silent.
Well, not exactly [k], which is a plosive. The sound ( in IPA) is a fricative, so it’s got some length to it. It’s sort of hard to describe in text.
ETA: And so I can avoid the triple post: the wiki article on Irish orthography is actually the one I used, and is, I think more useful than the one on Irish phonology.
Couldn’t avoid the triple post anyway.
The Wikipedia article on Siobhan indicates that the Irish pronunciation is either [ˈʃɪwaːn̪ˠ] or [ʃəˈvˠaːn̪ˠ]. So it would seem that [w] is indeed the normal pronunciation for a broad “bh”.
Aha! thank you.
I copied a word from the Irish orthography page (boichte), and through the magic of the “listen” button on Google Translate, I listened to it a few times. I’m sort of getting a handle on the sound.
Sadly the example between two vowels (oíche)doesn’t seem to work with the “listen” function.
I’m thinking that my original pronunciation might have been close.
Plosive. Fricative. I’m really enjoying tonight’s new words! Maybe I should look into linguistics more, this stuff is fascinating.
Irish has a huge variety in phonology between the dialects, which is why both “Shavaun” and “Shiwan” are correct for Siobhan. I’m not a native speaker either, but I concur with fachverwirrt’s suggest pronunciation, perhaps roughly angicized as “Dukholy” (kh as in Scots loch, German bach, etc.).
Googling the name “Dubhchobhlaigh” takes me to a Wikipedia page that says:
Oddly, the name appears to mean “black-bodied” in the sense of having a dark-coloured torso.
As Dr Drake correctly says, it varies with dialect, but in the standard form of Irish I learned at school, “bh” is normally pronounced as [v].
However, for many speakers it is pronounced as [v], [w] or silent depending on the context. So a schoolchild will learn to pronounce “black” as [dʊv] but will understand when a native speaker says [du:].
The rule posited above about broad vowels does not fully capture this variation.
Having said all of that, I would agree with fachverwirrt’s suggestion of [du xo li].
I consulted my fluent cousin and her native speaking husband and they inform me it is pronounced “Dulaí”, i.e. like the anglicised Dooley.
Of course it is. How silly of us.
For a completely uneducated opinion: when in Ireland and in doubt, I found the best practice was to pronounce the first sound, skip the alphabet soup in the middle, and pronounce the end.
So yes, I’d guess “Dooley”. And wonder of wonders, actually be correct, it seems!
Well here’s another opinion from an acquaintance. Noting the name combined two parts, the middle may not have totally disregarded:
I would pronounce it Duv-cov-ley
[Copy & paste from here redacted by moderator]
Realized my acquaintance copied that list of names from Wikipedia. Sorry, mods, please modify.
[moderating]
Okey-dokey. Got it for you.
[/moderating]
You see this or doo-cov-ley is how I would pronounce it by breaking down the constituent parts and with my 13 years of substandard education in the language but I consulted someone whom I knew would know for sure what the pronunciation was.
Hang your head An Gadaí, hang your head and cry, you di’n’t pronounce that forename, and now you’re bound to die.
Thanks all!
Sorry about being AWOL in my own thread for the last week-ish, but sometimes crazy stuff comes up in life.
I love this crazy language, and want to learn more about it.