There’s nothing “right” or “wrong” about either pronunciation of lieutenant. In fact the English pronunciation is probably “more wrong” as it’s more of an aberration from the original French pronunciation than loo-tenant.
In fact in the United States we originally pronounced it leftenant as well. Noah Webster, looking at the root of the word and its history in English correctly identified the pronunciation as a corruption of the correct pronunciation. He pushed the loo-tenant pronunciation to try and correct what he viewed as a popularized language mistake, and he was more or less successful in the United States.
From what I’ve read in the UK the American pronunciation has become somewhat mroe popular in recent years and that could be why you’re noticing people pronouncing it differently.
Possibly the same reason my drill sergeant saluted 2nd leiutenants with his left hand. He could get away with what he considers the correct amount of respect a 20 year combat veteran owes a 23 year old kid.
Basically, the short version of the difference is who made the person into an officer. Warrant officers, AIUI, receive their warrant from the branch of service they are in, directly. Congress makes commissioned officers. (Hence the line about, "He’s and an officer and a gentleman, and it took a act of Congress to do it.) Warrant Officers are usually long-term enlisted personnel who’ve often got all the qualifications needed to become a comissioned officer, but don’t wish to take kind of drop in prestige. (And it is a drop in prestige to go from being, say, Senior Chief (E-8) to Ensign (O-1)) There are some fillips about the kinds of duty a warrant can be assigned to, but I never really understood those, nor paid much attention to them. Frankly - any Warrant Officer got my immediate attention, even compared to a similarly ranked Comissioned Officer. I can’t claim that there aren’t clueless Warrants, but I never met any.
As for the difference between NCO’s and Officers - the best description I’d ever heard was that the NCO’s know how to do whatever needs doing, the officers tell the NCO’s what needs doing. Another way to look at it is that the officer is concerned about planning ahead, while the NCO’s take care of what’s actually going on at the moment.
To me, saying “I’m not an officer - I work for a living” is an excellent way to instill the troops with contempt towards officers, at a very young age. I don’t really see the advantage in that.
Strange, but every officer I’ve ever served under knew how to do both.
Well, Witty, when you’ve been in the service that long, you can do things the way they used to be if it suits you. Sergeants major know which rules can be broken, and when they can be broken.
As I’ve said before, I retired in '79 so I can’t speak to current practices and
procedures. Saluting w/ the left hand is permissible in the Navy and Marine
Corps.(and I think in the USCG), but only when the right hand is occupied or
disabled.
Warrant officer can be enlisted (W-1 & W-2) or commissioned (W-3 & W-4)
directly from civilian life. During VN many of the Army helo pilots were recruited,
they had to be 19, a HS grad. and pass aptitude testing. Previous flying experience
may have been helpful. The Army also selected others from civilian life and/or
enlisted ranks for positions that were shorthanded, usually selecting people w/
experience in the field they needed to fill. I once had the opportunity to go from Navy
Chief (E-7) to Army Warrant (W-2) in the engineers. I declined because it was a
temp. appointment and I could have been RIF’d before I reach my 20 years for
retirement. I would have lost my enlisted rank by changing services and I may, or
may not have been given the opportunity to finish my career as an Army enlisted.
I believe that “battlefield commissions” ended w/ WWII, or perhaps Korea, even then
I believe that selectees were required to attend OCS at the first available opportuity.
There have been many different paths from enlisted to officer and some only require the the
selectee complete an OCS course, not necessarily hold a 4 year degree. The Navy
had a Limited Duty Officer (LDO) program that went on for years. Selections were
made from enlisted ranks and selection was based on performance, deportment and
a recommendation from the C.O. Selectees were commissioned after OCS and were
“limited” in promotion to the rank of Commander (O-5). This program was in existence for
many years, but I think it was being replaced by the NESEP program.
As an aside, Navy, and perhaps USCG, Chief Petty Officers (E-7, E-8, E-9) are
unique in that their rank is made by appointment from the Navy’s Bureau of
Personnel. They cannot be reduced in rank, except by Courts Martial.
Unless the regs were different in the late 70s, Navy personnel do not salute with the left hand. If both hands are full or the sailor’s right arm is incapacitated in some way, the sailor is permitted not to salute.
Oh I’ve got masses of respect for his time spent in the Army and how that basically gives him the right to call anyone anything, as long as it looks like he’s doing it properly
What I didn’t get is that the CSM has a lot more experience than the RSM (and is also a nicer person, but that doesn’t matter), and winces every time he says it. He’ll have a go at other cadets for getting stateside with their pronounciation.
I thought it was clear from the “not how spelt” part that I’m poking fun at my Nation’s idea that we’re right about nonsensical things. If you didn’t get that then…well that’s how it was intended. Sorry if it came across differently.
"always use your right hand whenever possible. Use your left hand only if your right hand is injured. Use
your left hand to carry objects and leave your right hand free to salute."
I can’t find the site any longer, but I swear I read a WW2 Marine’s account of his boot training that began with the senior DI addressing his new recruits (hanging around at ease, BION!) “You can call me Sergeant, Mister, or Sir. Just don’t dare call me Sarge.” (Of course the next thing that happened was that some dumbass raised his hand and said “Hey Sarge…” and got a long, leisurely chawing out.)
Which is a new one on me, because I remember my company commanders telling us not to salute left-handed; an acknowledgment of superior rank was sufficient.
You want to hear something funny… as a lieutenant, I once passed an E-6 who was carrying a burden and therefore could not salute, and having not been saluted, I did not return it. He actually stopped me and said that I was required to assume that he saluted me, and to respond in kind. I responded simply that I was not up to speed on this obscure point of military courtesy, but if he had time to stop and grub for salutes, certainly he had time to offer one. However, I would make a note of it for future references.
I guess what I should have done would have been to go look it up in FM 22-5 immediately after, but what I actually did was have a good laugh and forget about it. Oh well. For all the elbow-to-elbow work that company-grade officers do with NCO’s, in my opinion you could raise the minimum saluting rank to major and it wouldn’t have bothered me at all. In fact there were some sergeants major that I wouldn’t have minded giving a deferential salute; it always felt really weird that decorated veterans with 20 years service had to defer to a fresh-out-of-college 21-year-old butterbar.
That is certainly the case for the USCG. The most common reason for saluting with the left hand is when one is ‘piping the side’ on the bos’n pipe. I’ve piped aboard a few VIPs in my time and saluted left handed every time.
There’s a joke, but it pretty well illustrates the difference. At a West Point physics class, the instructor said he’d give them a problm, and ask for oral solutions.
He said there was a 25-foot flagpole laying on the ground. It weighed 300 lbs. There was a cement block in the ground with a hole for the base of the pole.
As an officer, you have a sergeant and five privates at your disposal. How would you erect the flagpole?
Each cadet offered various ideas from block and tackle to a rope with a truck, etc.
After all had spoken, the instructions said, "Gentlemen, you are all incorrect. What you do is say, ‘Sergeant, get that flagpole up.’ "
As a Sgt. many, many years ago in the Army, I can vouchsafe for the accuracy of that policy.
Funny, when I was a recruit, I rarely said “sir” But if “Ma’m, yes Ma’m” wasn’t forethcoming… oh, I guess you guys are just guys…
I am, of course, teasing. I understand that most of the military was and is, male. My Medical Corpsman class has 108 men and 9 women. (Hell, yess, I liked it!)
Back to the OP – As mentioned, each branch has its own practices for when NCOs get the “Sir” treatment, usually in certain specific training environments as a result of a convention to so address everyone with authority in those circumstances. However, AFAIK the Army does NOT use that convention, and there it is always “Yes/No Drill Sergeant” if it’s the man/woman with the hat, “Yes/No [rank]” if it’s any other enlisted person.
Chouinard Fan (recently made O-3, yay!!) has told me that although he became obsessive about having his M-16 within reach at all times, in reality, he should not be firing, even as an O-1. Unless he thinks his personal involvement in shooting will turn the tide, he should be scoping out the strategic aspects of a firefight, because if he isn’t, probably no one is, and he’s the officer.
