Is a Sergeant Ever a "Sir"?

Factual Questions
41

Non-commissioned Officers are Enlisted members. Warrant Officers in the US Navy are also Commissioned Officers; however, they are in the Warrant Officer paygrades (for the Navy, currently W2 through W5 as the Navy no longer has W1). I don’t know if the Warrant Officers for the other Services are Commissioned Officers or not.

Also, a Specialist is most definitely not a Private, although a Specialist is not an NCO either. For the US Army, there are two ranks occupying the E4 paygrade: SPC and CPL (Specialist and Corporal).

42

Interesting that they’ve changed the warrant program yet again. When the E-8, E-9 ranks were created, in the late fifties if I remember correctly, there was talk of phasing out all, or part, of the warrant program. Now they have a W-5?? Any idea of the thinking behind this?

43

In civilian context I once called a retired enlisted sailor* “sir”. I did so because he’s twenty years older than me, very good at his job, one position higher than I am, and I tend to get all Southern about calling people sir.
His response was, “Don’t call me sir. My parents are married.”

  • I dont know his former MOS, but he speaks 7 languages and has an intimate knowledge of datacomm. He also has a DISTURBING facility with accents.
44

I was stationed at Naval Training Center Orlando in the early 90s. The base was home to the Naval Nuclear Power School, home to (it seemed) millions of fresh-out-of-college butterbars. If there was a group of enlisted sailors, the butterbar only had to salute once. If we were more than six feet apart, he had to salute us individually.

I can’t remember going to chow in a group. :smiley:

Now that I think about it, the whole “no left-handed salute” may have just been their way of dealing with such an officer-heavy base.

(Monty, can you please clarify?)

Robin

45

Ha! I heard a slightly different version from my brother, a Lt. Colonel in the Army:

West Point Question: You have 2 10’ lengths of wood and 4 2’ lengths of rope. From these materials, how do you construct a 30’ flagpole?

Answer: Show materials to sergeant and say, “Sergeant, build me a 30’ flag pole!”

Another joke:
Question: What’s the most dangerous thing in the US Army?
Answer: A lieutenant with a map.

46

WO1 in the Army is still a straight “warrant” appointment from the Secretary, then they get presidential commissions upon making CW2. The Army is peculiar in that they have people who enter straight from Basic to WOCS, or who can apply to become WOCS while still in the junior enlisted ranks: prospective helicopter pilots. Everyone else draws WOs from experienced NCOs.

Dunno what’s the case with Marine WO1s.

It had been first floated in the 70s, but it was first implemented with the Army in 1991, then 10 years later the Marines and Navy; the Coast Guard still holds out. Apparently the services all had some need for tweaks in the career progressions in some of the Warrant specialties.

I can imagine how the Army Aviation, with low-TIS WO1 entrants, would have a special concern about having them commit to a career where they would be promoted only 3 times in the next 20 years (The Coast Guard benefits every year from a number of Army Blackhawk drivers deciding they’d rather have a Line Officer’s career).

The Air Force did stop appointing WOs after the creation of the superNCO ranks, sort of splitting the functions, some to the superNCOs, some to junior commissioned officers.

47

I’ll take a swing at that ball, if you please.

During WWII and up until the early 80’s the U.S. Army essentially had two parallel enlisted ranks; the “normal” ones and the “specialists.” Specialists were typically in technical and support fields, whereas the “normal” ranks were typically in combat arms.

The Specialist ranks began at E-4, just as the non-com ranks did. Thus, and E-4 in infantry was a corporal, whereas an E-4 in commo was a “Specialist 4.” An Infantry E-5 was a Sergeant, whereas a Food Service Specialist was a “Specialist 5.” IIRC, the Specialist ranks went all the way up to E-9, though the highest I ever saw (in older photos, not personally) was a Specialist 8, equivalent grade-wise to a Master Sergeant/First Sergeant.

The Army began doing away with that in the early/mid 80s. My first duty station in Bamberg, Germany (July 86), had unit photos posted in the barracks, and the one for 1985, taken the previous October, still had a few remaining Specialist 5s in the photos, but they had since been converted to Sergeants by the time I had arrived.

The only remaining holdover from the old Specialist sytem of enlisted grades was the Specialist 4, later condensed just to “Specialist.” The major distinction (in Armor, at least, though I saw similar practices in Cav Scouts, Infantry, Artillery, and Aviation) was that Corporals tended to be in leadership positions, or positions of slightly greater responsibility than the equivalent graded Specialists.

Case in point: I left Germany as Specialist 4, on the E-5/Sergeant promotion list. At Ft. Hood, I was made gunner on our Platoon Leader’s tank, and was “laterally promoted” (there’s an Army euphamism for ya!) to Corporal. The Platoon Sergeant’s (that’s a title, not a rank) gunner was likewise a Corporal. But the gunners on the two “Wing Tanks” were Specialists.

While we Corporals nominally had more authority than Specialist 4s, it was a very fine line between the two; what it meant more often than not was that the “leadership” of the really crappy work and guard details got fobbed off on us, and the Specialist 4 (just called Spec-4s, as in “Speck Fours”) kicked back and acted all sarky about being bossed around, sometimes by guys with less time in service/time in grade than them.

It was an accepted truism amongst Corporals that we were really just low-budget Sergeants; good enough to do a Sergeant’s job, but not receive a Sergeant’s pay. That attitude, of course, changed remarkably once we received our third stripe. We suddenly understood why the Sergeant was so superior to the lowly Corporal, but were too cool to pass that along to our junior bretheren. :cool:

48

That’s exactly what the Air Force did. The other branches were smart enough to hold onto them. The thinking was that the E-8 and E-9 ranks would replace the warrant officer’s role.

Of course that didn’t work. The general concept of the warrant officer was that they were to be specialists in a technical field or one requiring a great deal of speciality or experience. Theywere to be highly experienced and highly skilled. To that end, they’re intended to have an extremely narrow career progression; they are meant to be the experts in a given area and while they may manage programs they’re not meant to be in command exactly.

Basically, the idea was lets have these folks and let them work in their specialty for thirty years and get really good at it whereas officers are meant to move on and up or get out. The reason why replacing warrants with E-8s and E-9s in the Air Force is that E-8s and E-9s are generally pressured/expected to move away froms the ‘hands on’ side of the job to handle personel and program management [which is what we were supposed to have officers for]. The problem is especially bad with Chiefs[E-9s] because they are frequently disconnected from their career field to serve as a Chief somewhere else. Thus, it’s a little tough for them to continue being the technical expert.

Anyway, that’s a very general overview and doesn’t apply to all career fields. But yet, E-8s and E-9s were created in part, with the idea that they could serve to replace the warrant officer. Alternatively, they were created to throw the enlisted corps a bone to to makegetting rid of warrents a little more easy to swallow. For the Air Force at least there were several issues involved in the decision process including some force restructuring that was scheduled to cut into commisioned officer billets at the time. In addition, having phased out the ‘flying-sergeant’ years previously, there were still tensions over the properlines between enlisted and officer career roles.

49

Everyone once in awhile [every two posts] I figure I’ve finally learned to pay attention to what I’m typing and therefore don’t need to preview. It’s never worked yet.

50

Recently, I read in the Navy Times that the US Navy will have an Aviation Warrant Officer program similar to the US Army’s. The big difference though is that those Warrants will not be W1 upon entry into the field but CW2.

Speaking of Specialist, the abbreviation for the Specialist at paygrade E4 used to be SP4. That was because of the existance at the time of SP5 and SP6. The Army dispensed with the latter two ranks back in 1985 (IIRC). Well, the new abbreviation for Specialist is SPC. While stationed in Japan, there was this one female SPC who discovered, to her delight, that in the Navy, a rating/rank abbreviation ending in C means E7. She manipulated that bit for a while until she tried pulling that stunt in my office and began berating a PO3. He didn’t want to make a mistake so he called me over (I was a PO1). So, I came over and let the SPC rant a bit and then I asked her if she recognized any of the ribbons on my uniform. You should’ve seen the look on her face when she noticed that half of them were, in fact, Army ribbons (I served my first enlistment in the Army). I don’t remember if her First Sergeant actually charged her with impersonating a Petty Officer but he did chew her out some for it.

Yeah, things change over time. I do think, though, that the Army should just can the whole Specialist/Corporal distinction. The Air Force did that but, IMHO, made a mistake: they got rid of the Sergeant (E4) and kept Senior Airman (E4).

51

Drat. Speaking of previewing. The First Sergeant mentioned above chewed the SPC out for impersonating a Chief Petty Officer.

52

ExTank, I understand all of that. And, in retrospect, I wasn’t clear on what I was asking Monty to clarify.

What I’m wondering is if my recollection is correct – that Navy personnel generally don’t salute with the left hand.

Robin

53

Ermm… maybe I’m dense but this kind of doesn’t make sense to me. First, I fully admit not being versed in Navy ranks, but I don’t see how a rank ending in “C” designates E7. The E7 rank CPO begins with C, but doesn’t end with C. Second, in the Army, the abbreviation SPC doesn’t appear on uniform or insignia, and it is not used as a verbal form of address. So how exactly could she use the “C” to fool someone? She wouldn’t exactly go “Hello, I’m (mumble cough)C Johnson” or point at an “SPC” on her uniform.

If you knew the person firsthand then maybe you can get the straight story…otherwise it sounds kind of urban legendy to me.

54

I’m a CPO, E7. As my specialty is Boatswain’s Mate, I’m most commonly referred to as BMC (Boatswain’s Mate, Chief). This is true of all enlisted E7s in the Navy and CG. A Chief Yeoman would be referred to as YNC and so on down the line. IME, being referred to as BMC is much more common than CPO, as it’s a bit more descriptive.

55

yeah - that’s redundant, I know.

56

OK, but still. Do Navy E-7’s walk verbally refer to themselves themselves as “BMC”? Even if they did, how would an Army SPC draw credible attention to the “C” if none of her insignia bore “SPC?”

57

My bluejacket manual is tucked away somewhere. IIRC there are three provisions for when you are allowed to salute left handed. If you are broken, meaning arm in a sling or using a cane or crutch in the right hand. Photographers Mates while doing whatever it is they do, and maybe Opal can help me with the third thing because I can’t remember it.

58

I can recall two incidents where there was confusion over my rank. Once I was
admitted to an Air Force hospital after an auto accident. Someone in the check in
process confused my rank, Chief Petty Officer (E-7), w/ the Air Force rank of Chief
Master Sergeant (E-9). As a result I was given a private room in deference to the
rank. When they discovered the error I was moved onto the ward. Ironically, within a few
hours, it was discovered that I had a highly infectious infection and I was moved back to the
private room and put under isolation.
On another occasion I was communicating with a local office on an Army Reserve
base by letter. I sign my name on official military correspondence as such: A.R.
Cane, UTC, USN (ret.) Apparently someone thought the “U” was a typo and I
received a reply beginning “Colonel Cane,”
They obviously assumed that my rank was supposed to have been “LTC”, or Lt.
Colonel.

59

I never stayed in long enough to make chief, so take this with a bit of a grain of salt. However while I was mess-cranking I ended up working in the chief’s mess, aka the Goat Locker. During breakfasts there, you couldn’t simply say “Chief,” or “Senior Chief,” without risking major confusion. I saw many of the chiefs refer to each other by rate. Not often, of course, and if it weren’t for the presence of junior enlisted personnel, I suspect they’d have been using the same sorts of crude nicknames use blue-shirt scum used amongst ourselves. But, yes, I have heard lines like, “BMC, pass the salt, please.”

60

Way back when, when I was at the Presidio of Monterey, a joint service station, most AF NCOs had no problem with sir, some Army did, and nearly all Marine did. As for the Navy, I could never figure out their rank system and probably went around saluting Seaman Recruits :smiley:

When I was stationed at RAF Chicksands, no sergeant every said ‘boo’ if you called him or her sir or ma’am (as long as you got the gender correct). However, one of the Chiefs on base would say something (or smack me or step on my foot) everytime I called him ‘Chief’ in our theatre group. I tried telling him it was an homage to Edward Platt, but he wasn’t buying it. Still, he was always ‘Chief’ to me.