Yesterday, I found this story in the newspaper (unfortunately I could only find the Australian version of the British story). The basic plot is that an English girl is suing her school because she received a very poor grade in her end-of-year results for Latin. She claims that the grade will affect her future salary prospects because leading law firms will be less likely to shortlist her for job interviews.
Throughout her schooling career, the girl had been a star pupil and received the school prize for Latin every year. The family claim to have a letter by the headmaster of the school admitting that “the new Latin teacher had not prepared the students properly”.
The family is seeking 150,000 to cover the loss of future earnings, school fees and compensation for the distress caused (loss of esteem among her peers).
The headmaster has further stated that “the weakness in Kate’s Latin teaching was a lapse by a young teacher who came to us with a good reference and experience of teaching Latin.”.
If she can adequately show that the poor grade is not an accurate indicator of her actual performance in the subject, then yes, she should be allowed to sue. However, she’ll need more proof than “The teacher didn’t like me” or “He didn’t teach well.”
Hey, I want my school to take back my low marks in Biology, Physics and Calculus. Those classes were taught by incompetent instructors, and the low marks in those classes preveted me from getting a 3.95 GPA.
This will set a bad precedent. If this passes, only rich people can afford to have their grades changed.
My accounting teacher didn’t like me and I got worse grades than I think I deserved. I could have been a CPA now making three times the salary. I’m gonna sue too.
I find it odd that someone who won awards for being so adept at Latin can fail a Latin exam. With her thousands of hours studying it, how is this possible? It couldn’t be that she felt she could slide, or had been sliding, along because of status could it? Unless I misread the article, a separate board graded the exam, not the instructor. What does a syllabus have to do with it? If she was really as good as she supposedly was, one would think she would have gotten higher than the lowest possible.
If somehow, it actually was the fault of the instructor, and the test was not in line with the syllabus, I would think that an independant board could draw up a quick test based upon what the students had supposedly been studying, i.e. in line with the syllabus, and adjust any grades as required. As far as damage to her self esteem, the other classmates failed as well, so there shouldn’t be any damages in that area. The implications of a lawsuit though are staggering.
My first reaction is purely cynical. So’s my second. And I found it darkly amusing that the unrelated banner ad that sat in the middle of the story, when I viewed it, was someone with fingers jammed in ears, with eyes closed, with the tagline “No more excuses!”
But if there’s one thing I’ve learned from such things as the (in)famous McDonald’s coffee-spillage, it’s that lawsuits that sound absolutely frivolous upon first glance may well have factors that get sharply downplayed. I’m reining in cynicism for the time being until more details come in.
First, the school is being sued not for a low mark but for completely inadequate instruction. All 4 latin students received failing grades as is confirmed on the school’s web site. They have have admitted that the instructor did not do his job, presumably because the failing grade might have interfered with her ability to gain admission to university.
The parents contracted with a school that sells itself primarily on the basis of excellent instruction. It is usually difficult to sue for poor performance but this sounds like substantial noncompliance. They failed to provide the service contracted for and should be liable for damages. That the damages may be nominal or difficult to quantify suggests that the action may be ill advised but does not imply that it is not well founded in contract law.
Sounds like a potentially valid lawsuit. The school agreed to teach her capably and, by their own admission, failed to do so, so we have a pretty clear breach of contract. Some of the damages are too speculative to fall within the scope of damages for breach of contract, so they probably can only get the fees back, but I think they have at least a pleadable case and might actually win.
The school should have put a limitation of liability clause into their tuition agreement, limiting their liability to the fee paid for classes. Then they’d only be able to sue for the original fees paid. The school should have offered to refund their money to “make it go away”, if you ask me.
I’m in agreement with KellyM on this one. Generally speaking, I’m opposed to this sort of “it’s got to be somebody’s fault” sorts of cases, but here we have the headmaster admitting that his school did not do the job that it was contracted (and paid) to do.
I’m leery of the requested compensation, however - way too speculative. I think the appropriate result should be that the school pays for private tutoring and to retake the examination (if that is possible under the English education system) - IOW, that the school perform its obligations under the contract. Perhaps toss in a chunk of money to compensate the student for the lost year before she can reapply for her legal education.
As a general principle I see this as a positive development. Teachers and their schools need to be held accountable for their primary mission of teaching. We have all had lousy teachers at one time or another, and for the most part we’ve just gritted our teeth and suffered through it.
I think it’s time for students to start saying “Professor Smith, you are wasting our time and our (parent’s) money with your rambling, disorganized lectures. If you can’t do a better job of teaching, we are going to vote you out of the classroom and replace you with a TA.”
Ultimately, the teachers and the schools are there for the students, not the other way around.
Won’t matter. Those students go to public schools, and therefore don’t have a contract to sue on. Public education is a “gratuitous service”: there is no contract and no promise to provide competent education. (With respect to the provision of gratuitous services, you can only sue for gross negligence or intentional injury, and gross negligence is a very high standard.)
There have been attempts to sue public schools (or public school teachers) for “educational negligence” but as far as I know all such suits have failed, except for the rare case where the student was covered by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act and the educational failure amounted to a violation of a provision of that act, or where the actions involved have amounted to intentional torts (such as battery, false imprisonment, or denial of civil rights).
I think this may be overbroad, KellyM. Some state constitutions include a guarantee of a public education, and in several states, this state constitutional right has been interpreted to mean “quality education”, at least in the context of funding. I don’t see it as a huge stretch to apply the “quality education” to the individual level with regards to the quality of the instruction provided by a particular teacher.
I just checked the school’s website and IMO, the end-of-year results are exceedingly poor for 12,000 pounds a year. Very few A’s, with the majority of students receiving B and C results. But I’m comparing them to the spread of results at my school in Australia (with the majority of marks being A’s) and I’m sure that there are differences in marking between the two countries.
Additionally, I’m a bit surprised that the students themselves weren’t familiar with the syllabus. For each of my subjects, the students were given a photographed copy so they could ensure they learned everything that was necessary for the exam. If they deviated so far from the prescribed syllabus that all four students failed, wouldn’t there have been warning signs somewhere along the way? (“Um, sir, why are we learning dirty words in Latin instead of conjugating verbs?”)
Lastly, I have to wonder why an untried first year teacher was given the responsibility of a final year class. Even if he came with good references, it’s a lot of trust for a school to put into an unknown teacher.
In most schools, students have some sort of recouse for bad instruction. Most schools have a period where you can drop or withdraw from a class if the teaching is bad. They also usually give you the chance to challenge a grade. Most schools also have some sort of proffesor evaluation, and in my school at least those evals are used to make hiring/promoting decisions.
In this case I think that the student should focus on her schools policies and getting the grade withdrawn instead on monetary damages.
I agree that the poor abilities of the instructor seem to be what led to this student’s failing grade, but I confess I’m not convinced of the validity of her claim against the school.
I know bupkis about the UK school system, but I am curious as to if the exam folks investigated why an entire class failed an exam. In New York state, the Regents Board administers final exams, and a 100% failure rate from a given school would lead to some inquiry.
Also, while I understand that the UK system doesn’t correspond exactly to the American system, I’m not convinced that a single poor grade would influence her future career, especially if she excels in the university program where she is currently enrolled. Perhaps one of our English Dopers could comment on this.
Reeks of whiny brat that can’t handle a setback (along with parents that encourage that type of behavior).
Couple of thoughts:
She is in private school, yet is worried about “top-flight law firms” not hiring her? Shouldn’t she apply for, get accepted in, and graduate from law school first? I seriously doubt a firm will look at your high school records when making a hiring decision.
“Let’s see here Ms. Norfolk. Top of your class in college, top of your class in law school. You’d make a fine addition to our…Wait a minute, what’s this? A “D” in high school Latin?? I’m sorry we have no place for you here. Especially since we have so many cases tried in ancient Rome” :rolleyes:
I agree with Turbo Dog in that students have somewhat of a responsibility to ensure they are getting their money’s worth from their education. If she is already a good Latin student, she should have been aware that the class was not proceeding as planned.
-The compensation is ridiculous and probably unprovable. I agree that she should maybe get compensated for any tutoring she might need to prepare for the test.
-She could get the grade expunged. Everyone failing is a pretty good indication that something was amiss. Is Latin required for her admittance to law school? If so, she could take another class to pass the test as she is still in college.
Funny how people tend to say they “earned” a good grade, but a teacher always “gives” them a bad one.
IMHO, if she goes to this exterme over a grade, she will get eaten alive in the legal world. Will she sue the judge when she loses a case?
She’s entitled to sue. Hell, anyboyd can file suit for any reason they can imagine.
But she ain’t entitled to prevail.
There’s no guarentee of good marks, no matter how much you’ve paid for your education and no matter how unjust the grade might actually be.
A grade is a subjective and imprefect measure of one’s ability.
If she’s so concerned about how the grade will effect her ability to find work, then she can explain in a job interview that her Latin teacher was inept and that she does not consider the grade an accurate reflection of her abilities.
And if she wants to sue more because the school failed to teach her Latin property, again, she should not prevail, because ultimately, she is responsible for her own education, and if she fails to reach a mastery of Latin, that is her own fault for not seeking out additional help and resources.
If they were tried in Ancient Rome, people might understand them better.
How many of these kinds of obscure (or not so obscure; just never used outsite the courtroom) phrases do you learn in high school though?
[sub]Apologies if the site isn’t too good, it’s the first one I found with Google. I now take my leave to celebrate my hundredth post; you may accompany me if you wish, but I doubt you’d want to. ;)[/sub]
My understanding of the English system is that a law degree there is an undergraduate degree (they have what is essentially an apprenticeship system after students receive their degree). So yeah, a “D” in high school would affect her job prospects, as it would affect which undergraduate law program she could get into.
That being said, I agree and reiterate that the compensation she seeks is way too speculative. Even with an “A” in Latin, she could end up discovering weed in college.
even sven - withdrawing is a pretty bad recourse. If that class was the only Latin class (which it sounds like from the article), the result of withdrawal would probably mean a better grade in a different subject, but it would also mean she doesn’t get Latin instruction that year.
Hell, back when I was in high school, I signed up for AP Physics. First day of class, I learned that it wasn’t being taught that year by the normal teacher, a well-respected instructor, but instead by a guy with a utterly-deserved reputation as a bully and an incompetent teacher. I withdrew.
Now, instead of a physicist, I’m a lawyer. You see, the consequences can be horrific.
