A coma is a pause, …think 'smart mouth reply, …use the pauses, …think about it, …getting it yet, …no? … Oh well, … see the above post.
Gus, I don’t think it’s fair of you to chide others for not listening to you when, every time someone calls AA a “religious organization,” you accuse them of calling AA a “religion.”
Catholicism -----> religion
Knights of Columbus ----> religious organization
Judaism ----> religion
B’nai Brith -----> religious organization
It is not at all helpful when, every time someone refers to one, you claim that they said the other.
(http://nurses.medscape.com} lists alcoholism as a disorder. Main Entry: al.co.hol.ism
Pronunciation: 'al-k&-"ho-"liz-&m, -k&-h&-
Function: noun
1 : continued excessive or compulsive use of alcoholic drinks
2 a : poisoning by alcohol b : a chronic progressive potentially fatal psychological and nutritional disorder associated with excessive and usually compulsive drinking of ethanol and characterized by frequent intoxication leading to dependence on or addiction to the substance, impairment of the ability to work and socialize, destructive behaviors (as drunken driving), tissue damage (as cirrhosis of the liver), and severe withdrawal symptoms upon detoxification
And disease…Main Entry: dis.ease
Pronunciation: diz-'Ez
Function: noun
: an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions and is a response to environmental factors (as malnutrition, industrial hazards, or climate), to specific infective agents (as worms, bacteria, or viruses), to inherent defects of the organism (as genetic anomalies), or to combinations of these factors : SICKNESS, : ILLNESS – called also morbus
- dis.eased /-'Ezd/ adjective
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CatBiker *
**
And again I repeat, ‘huh?’ Make some sense, would ya? Did you have a statement to make or did you just want to blather?
-L
You may be interested in http://www.psych.org/search/websearch_VSearchResult.cfm
it has a lot of good info. Psychiatrists, following DSM-4 list only substance dependence and substance abuse, and not alcoholism as such, not that it makes much difference what you call it.
I went and looked and you are right, I did that. Sorry, My Bad.
AA’s say it is spiritual, not religious but I guess that is wrong too? A religious program would have some affiliation no? A spiritual program would be more non affiliation with anyone - thing?
I still ask, why do the judges send the people if it is so clear cut?
I still ask, why blame AA, they do not ask that the people be sent.
There are several million people world wide that are sober and practicing AA’s program of staying sober this day. I guess that offends people somehow. If you don’t like the program, don’t go. If you don’t want other people to go, take out adds or something. I guess if calling AA a religious program will make you [generic you] happy, go for it. That does not change anything.
Here is a good place to attack AA for what the courts do. Or AA for what OA did not do.
Sexywriter, the “above post” was a reference to the one immediately above that I posted. I saw no reason to post twice. The bolded part was mine and that hopefully should have answered your questions of me.
You don’t want alcoholism to be a disease, fine, what ever it is, AA does a lot of good. If you feel that the people in these programs are being lead down a harmful path, I guess you do need to do something about it. On here is a good safe place to do it. Prolly going to make a lot bigger impact than getting in some judges face or somebody who has been sober a few years when you come up and tell him that he is full of it. Try to not have booze on your breath when you do it. People in recovery get rather tired of people who are drunk getting in their faces and telling them that they are not really sober or doing it right. Of course no one here would ever be that discourteous. I am sure of that. <— sarcasm
How dare we question how or even if it works! How dare we question the numbers given by A.A. as to how effective the program is! How dare we object to the general dishonesty of a group that is pretending not to be religious! How dare we try to find out the facts!
Oops, I forgot…that’s what we do here at the SDMB-question unsubstaniated claims.
Well, if not wrong, it’s certainly disingenuous.
No, not necessarily. From *The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. *
Nothing in there about affiliation.
Oh, I dunno. Would you argue that the wrongness of slavery must not be clear-cut if our original Constitution condoned it?
No, they don’t ask, but they do present themselves as an appropriate place for people to be sent.
It doesn’t offend me that people get sober in AA. It offends me that AA gets people sober by encouraging them to suspend their critical thinking.
Participation in AA made me very happy for several years. It does not make me happy now to turn against it.
But, AA folks do preach honesty, and they preach it loudly. All I’m doing is pointing out that they aren’t practicing it too well themselves.
Christianity was probably doing a lot of good at the same time its members were torturing and slaughtering each other. I appreciate that AA does not go in for torture and slaughter. It does cause some suffering, though, and seems to a sad degree either blind or indifferent to that fact.
Can you say “straw man”? I haven’t had a drink in over 14 years.
God, I’m tired of this.
If you have a problem with AA, don’t go. Simple, isn’t it? Don’t badmouth an organization that has saved my life and the lives many people I’ve come to care about. You don’t know what we went through out there, and for the most part, you don’t care. Not that you really should. You also don’t know what we go through to stay clean. Again, not that you really should. But don’t go telling people there going to have give their lives to Jesus or sell fucking flowers at the airport if they come to AA. It’s not like that.
I’ll say this. If you don’t think AA attendence should be mandated as part of someones sentence, I agree with you. You want to make it so judges can’t sentence people that way, I’m on board with you.
If you have a problem with booze and dope and would like our help, we’ll be here for you. Come, or don’t come. It’s up to you. If you don’t have a problem with booze or dope, it’s none of your business. But please don’t try to make it harder for people to find us.
I’m done.
alcoholism is a disease which is triggered by drinking, and in which the core pathology involves changes in the brain which create a strong or overwhelming compulsion to continue drinking.
Some people are undoubtedly more susceptible to alcoholism than others, and that susceptibility is probably partially genetic, and perhaps partially “psychosocial.”
It seems that the few people who posted here that they think alcoholism IS NOT a disease are under a few serious misapprehensions:
-
that a disease must be caused exclusively by genetics
-
that a disease must be totally spontaneous and autonomous, and not triggered, caused by or exacerbated by behaviors
Both of those are wrong. Think: coronary artery disease, many (if not most) cancers, emphysema, diabetes (other than juvenile onset), gout, communicable diseases…you could go on all day.
It could well have saved my life, too, but I’m not going to switch my brain off just to show my gratitude. Saving lives doesn’t earn any organization sacred-cow status.
I know what you went through. I went through it myself.
**
It’s not specifically like that, no. Generically, though, I’m afraid it is very much like that. I have been an AA member, and before I began qualifying to be one, I was an evangelical Christian. I began seeing the similarities between the two the minute I walked into my first AA meeting, and the more meetings I went to, the more similarities I saw.
** They, meaning, people, say to who? In a newspaper? To a judge? An AA member went to the courts and said that AA was a good place to send people? They presented to who, where, when?
You saw that AA was similar to your religion? Okay, I say it is like me, maybe I am an atheist. This proves what? Your dictionary says you are right. Feel better?
AA says you can - not must - but can depend on a power higher than yourself, actually seems to work for lots of folks. The program works for a lot of totally non religious folks too. I see manny every day that don’t pray in the meetings when the meeting is closed with a prayer. I go to some that there is no opening prayer or closing prayer and I have “NEVER” seen a meeting where anyone was ridiculed for not praying, coming in late to miss any prayer, leaving early to miss a prayer or go to smoke a cig or go to the bathroom or … Never seen anyone thrown out of a meeting for anything other that being blind drunk and yelling and screaming and totally disrupting the meeting and that only once in over 10 years.
Oh, again, how manny meetings have you gone to? How long did you go? And how manny were in different places with different people, like, you know, what kind of sample did you take? you know, but, you know,… <veg>
If you stopped thinking a certain way because somebody “IN” AA said something to you, that is not the programs fault. Sounds like you were looking for someone to stop your critical thinking.**
That is great! If you enjoy life totally free from alcohol, congratulations. You are doing good. Alcohol is not bad, abuse probably is but…
I had a Granny that had not had any alcohol for over 92 years, she did not know diddly about alcoholism. Your point? You were qualifying you said, did you? Makes no difference does it? You are alcohol free today, you say AA helped or that you saw things you did not like and never went back? And then you did not need AA or want AA anymore? You felt it was bad for YOUR way of ‘thinking’, okay - Cool. That makes AA bad how? Did they make you change your thinking? They, being people, or was it in the AA book that it said you “HAD” to change? There is some things about ‘if you are an alcoholic of this type’ but you were not of that type were you? I have myself; and have seen other folks with much and little time get up and leave when a person goes off on a rant. No rules in AA, remember? No laws, no person speaks for AA. No authority what so ever. No professionals. Will never be organized. <–That is a period dot.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CatBiker *
**
So why are you so gung ho for an organization that does nothing? Doesn’t tell people not to drink, doesn’t tell people HOW to avoid drinking, doesn’t involve any professionals, doesn’t speak up for itself, etc.?
Of course, none of this is true. There clearly IS an AA organization and they clearly DO support certain ways of going about things. About 7 out of 10 of those ways involve a deity. There are meetings in which other non-experts at various stages of recovery express their views about how to work the plan. Of course, they all conform to the same plan as prescribed by the books and AA culture within a fairly narrow framework.
I agree with you that that particular plan has nothing to do with alcoholism and doesn’t do anything for the alcoholic that he/she can’t find elsewhere with less religious and other pressure. But I’m not sure that’s what you intended to say.
-L
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SexyWriter *
**
LOL Okay, you have the straight dope. So who is the President of this AA?
That ought to be easy to find out for somebody so sure of the workings of AA.
A.A.
General Service Office
Box 459,
Grand Central Station,
New York, NY 10163
Well, OK, I have never heard an AA member say in so many words that AA is “a good place to send people.”
What I have heard many of them say is that AA is a good place for people to go if they have a drinking problem. I also know that AA has a policy, practically a 13th tradition, of cooperation with outside agencies whose functions include dealing with problem drinkers. Since the court system is one such agency, I think a reasonable person is entitled to put 2 and 2 together and guess that the answer probably is more or less 4.
**
No, I wouldn’t go that far. I said that I observed quite a few similarities. I did also observe some very significant differences, but they are not relevant to this discussion.
**
If a group is going to abide by the Third Tradition, it doesn’t have much choice. And no one is disputing that nonreligious people can and do get sober in AA. But a lot of them don’t, and there is a good reason for that.
You’ve never seen anyone thrown out of a meeting, except as noted. Fine. Neither have I. But I’ve also never seen a newcomer told that if he isn’t religious, he should ignore the God talk.
You don’t have to tell someone, “We’d rather you didn’t come back,” for them to get the message that they don’t belong in AA if they have no use for a god. Yes, “How It Works” includes the word “suggested.” BFD. It starts out with, “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.” The message couldn’t be clearer: If you don’t do what we did, you aren’t going to stay sober.
Sure, the 12 Steps are “only suggestions.” But they’re presented in a context that makes it sound like suggesting the use of a parachute when jumping out of an airplane.
**
The number of meetings I have attended is greater than 1,500. I can’t pin it down any closer than that.
I went to my first meeting in 1976 and continued attending for about a month before drinking again. In 1983 I was back, but stayed only a couple weeks before going back out again. I returned again in August 1987, and that’s when I consider my serious AA involvement to have begun. I attended my last meeting in July 1999. For roughly the first five years, I attended at least five meetings during a typical week. I served two terms as my group’s GSR (for you non-AAs reading this, that’s general service representative), during which I never missed a quarterly area assembly. During this time I was also the district’s public information coordinator, a position I kept when I rotated out of GSR and became the group secretary.
This was all while I was living in a small town in Northeast Florida. There were two or three other groups that I visited frequently, others that I dropped in on once in a while. The differences I saw were trivial. We did, however, have a lot of members who had moved to this town after getting sober in another part of the country, and they often remarked that our meetings were very different from what they’d gotten used to. At the same time, though, they were emphatically unanimous in the opinion that the AA program was the same everywhere.
Which, of course, it should be, in light of the First Tradition: “Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends on AA unity.”
In due course, I found the meetings less and less satisfying and curtailed my attendance drastically. After moving to another city, I almost stopped entirely for a couple of years. After my 10th anniversary, though, I found a new home group and started attending more regularly. When our group secretary resigned, I accepted election to fill the vacancy.
**
Fortunately, I didn’t stop thinking critically. If I had, I’d still be an active member. I did find it necessary, however, to engage in certain intellectual gymnastics to stifle the feelings of hypocrisy that I should have felt every time it was my turn to read “How It Works.” It finally became impossible for me to stifle those feelings, and that’s when I stopped attending altogether.
But to your point . . . the members of AA are the program. The program exists only in their minds. The literature describing the program is nothing but a record of the members’ collective thinking, as that thinking has evolved since Bill Wilson and the other founders wrote the Big Book.
Did this one first because for as long as you have been around, and the things you have done it makes me wonder at what is going on with you?
I too have over 10 years. Average 8 meetings a week for 10 years straight through. So what. I have not had a drink yet. You know that the AA program is action, not thinking. The AA Big Book is about what they did. Their thoughts are there too. It says their thinking did no good. It is an action program. It tells you that if you want to sit and think about it that you are in big trouble. {Paraphrased}
You know about the soldier in India? The sheep herder in Australia? So what is this about the people. The fellowship is about people. The program has not changed, they have not changed the first 164 pages for that reason, you think?
The thoroughly follow our path part? That starts out “Rarely”?
Where to start… You remember the “If you are an alcoholic of our type?”
I made my living flying small planes and have been to meetings all over the country including Florida, if after 10 years of in and out you still think that AA makes people who don’t believe in GOD feel like they have to leave, then that is you. I HAVE been all over and only once or twice have I run into that and then I said something too. I did not let it stand. Why did you?
AA does not engage in controversy it’s in the traditions right? I do engage in controverys, LOL I sure will stand up against anybody, old timer or not that says something that stupid of even implies something that stupid in a meeting.
Is when you get up and not let this be spouted at a meeting.
You have been a GSR so you know how bone headed it can get. How it is not organized etc.
If I tell some one to ‘shut up’ I also am real clear that I did not say ‘get out.’
Anywho, you stay sober and I applaud you. Don’t really care where or how. Your implications that since you don’t see or understand something IMO is not correct or rational in saying the whole thing is — what ever…
Then you have found all the really bad meetings. At almost every ‘beginners’ meeting I have ever attended, and almost every meeting where it was known that there was a beginner, and they are kind of easy to spot ya know, they were told to not worry about the “GOD” thing and that they were told to keep coming back.
I have been in AA meetings in all but 11 states, I have taken AA meetings to hospitals every Thursday for over 7 years. So what. It does not make me anything but sober. That is what I get. I am sorry if you can not ‘keep the parts that you can use and forget the rest’ which is usually stated at the end of every meeting too. Makes it hard.
Ever go to an AA conference and hear the speakers and talk to folks from all over the country?
From all the time you spent and trouble you had in staying sober, and I assume you do want to stay sober, from what you are saying, it is too bad that you were in such a limited place at the start. I am in a rural setting now myself and it is harder to get much diversity with out some effort but I do it anyway. Both 
No you don’t. Does not exist. I gave the New York addresses up a few posts, call them. You were a GSR and say that? You went out and told groups that they had to allow them in? You never heard of groups saying no? Man oh man, I can see why you are confused. I would like to go to a few of the meetings you did. You can get my email from the profiles, let me know in the sub line what it is about or who you are because I don’t ever open mail from people I don’t know unless I am expecting it. So send me some places or names. A GSR that is still in those places? Have I got a surprise for them. LOL
AA does not say that it is the only way to get or stay sober. If a persons tells you that, get in their face and ask for the page number.
Have a nice day.
It may save your life or at least your sanity…
Fortunately, there is help out there for folks who don’t subscribe to the disease theory or the “have to stop thinking to stop drinking” modes of getting clean.
Some of the books on the following web site look like good resources for people who are having trouble de-programming from either a 12-step group, or from the 12-step dogma hurled at us by mainstream “it’s not my fault” society.
Good luck breaking free, and I salute you.
http://www.aadeprogramming.com/choose/books_deconstruct.html
Way to go Doc, and if it doesn’t work for them you’ll help then next how? They should send you email? Oops, can’t do that. Well I really hope they can get well and lead happy and useful lives. If the books you have suggested don’t work for them, what is your next sugestion? Will Power? Just say NO? I do know for sure that ‘death’ works everytime. I hope they all make it before that is the next thing. But hey, the World is round, not fair, just round.
Have a nice day ya hear?