[QUOTE=Quercus]
Is there anything you do think is ‘wrong’ in sports? Intentionally injuring a player on the other team? How about intentionally injuring them when they’re not in the game (say, poisoning their food, or just shooting them on the way to the ballpark)? Bribing officials?
[/QUOTE]
YOU DO WHAT YOU CAN TO WIN.
Sweep the leg, Johnny.
How do you folks say that you’ve never seen this happen before? I’ve seen it attempted dozens of times and seen it work a few times. You might have an opinion that it’s bush league, fine, but you’re simply insane if you think this doesn’t happen occasionally.
On that point, in respect to RickJays comment that it’s interference, I have never once seen this ruled as such. Interference is a very, very rarely called offense even when physical contact is present, I have never ever seen it called for yelling at a player. I have never even heard anyone argue that it should have been called.
Methinks the claims that it’s “universally accepted” to be an unwritten rule is utter and complete bullshit. Happens all the time. Rarely works because these are big leaguers. Hell, 75% of the time fielders don’t break off a ball when their teammates call them off a play.
A-Rod is a little bitch, but baseball is a dirty slimy game and this happens all the time. The real d-bag in this scenario is Howie Clark, falling for a cheese dick play like that.
If anything the number of baseball people calling it “an unwritten rule” is a clearer indication of the number of people who dislike A-Rod than of people who have a strong opinion on it. If that had been Jeter barking at a opponent and gaining the Yanks a couple runs, you can bet there’d be players and reporters lining up on PTI to call it a “heady baseball play”.
[QUOTE=Omniscient]
How do you folks say that you’ve never seen this happen before? I’ve seen it attempted dozens of times and seen it work a few times. You might have an opinion that it’s bush league, fine, but you’re simply insane if you think this doesn’t happen occasionally.
[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about a Major League game? Because I have never seen it in over 30+ years of watching and attending MLB games. I’ve seen it plenty in little league or beer leagues, but in MLB? Not once I can recall.
I also don’t recall seeing it watching highlights of another game - since you say you’ve seen it work a few times, I’d probably remember because they would probably show it. Much like the many times they showed Mike Lowell successfully using the [hidden ball trick](javascript:void(playMedia2({w_id:‘442477’,w:‘2005/open/topplays/archive08/081005_ariflo_lowell_hiddenball_350.wmv’,pid:%20’mlb_tp’,gid:%20’2005/08/10/arimlb-flomlb-1’,cid:%20’mlb’,fid:%20’mlb_tp350’,v:‘2’}))) for the D-Backs back in 2005.
Maybe we should take a poll in IMHO - “how many major league baserunners in a major league game have you seen yell ‘MINE!’ or ‘HAH!’ or whatever to get an outfielder to drop a pop fly?”
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus]
In the 1991 World Series the Second Baseman and Shortstop for the Minnesota Twins (Chuck Knoblauch was the shortstop, but I cannot remember the second baseman’s name) pulled off a fake double play on a ball hit into the gap. Lonnie Smith of the Braves was on first and should have scored easily, but wasn’t following the ball and was fooled into stopping his run for a second or two, which meant he had to stop at third base. He never scored and the Twins went on to win the game 1-0 and with it the Series.
I have never heard anyone claim that was unsportsmanlike, how is what A-Rod did any different?
[/QUOTE]
Well, my answer is based on my own sense of what is sportsmanlike, and what is not. I’m not going to discuss the actual rules, because i think that RickJay has cleared that up rather definitively.
For me, deception like that described above, where the Twins faked a double play, is OK because the runner should be watching the ball to see if it gets past the infield before he sets off from his base (unless, of course, he’s on a coach-ordered hit-and-run play). So, if the ball was a line drive in the air, a guy on first like Smith needed to wait and see if it was caught before setting off, otherwise he could be doubled off at first base. And if it was a grounder, he had to run anyway because he was on first. The whole attempted deception could have been rendered moot if the runner followed the ball instead of the fielder.
But with A-Rod’s play last night, the Blue Jays’ third baseman had no time to turn and see who was making the call. All he can hear is a voice close behind him saying what he thinks is “Mine,” as the ball is on its way down. In such situations, a third baseman is nearly always going to defer to the shortstop.
The only criticism i would make of the Blue Jays’ infield is that someone should have called for the catch loud and early, and should have been camped under the ball ready to take the catch. Clark, at third base, looked like he wanted to take the catch, but he was never right under the ball, even before A-Rod made his call. If someone steps up and makes an early decision to get right under the ball and take the catch, there’s less likelihood that an unsportsmanlike shout will make a difference.
[QUOTE=Marley23]
Rodriguez said that players in the dugout do things like that all the time, and I think that’s true just because I think cheating and questionable sportsmanship are so deeply ingrained in baseball culture. That’s not much of a defense for Rodriguez, but it’s not supposed to be.
[/QUOTE]
Right. I’m sure shouts like that do come from the dugout, and they also come from the crowd in the stands. But pro players—indeed, just about anyone—can usually instantly tell the difference between a call coming from right behind them, and one that comes from thirty or forty or one hundred feet away. Not always, but most of the time.
I’ve been to soccer and rugby matches where some morons in the crowd bring whistles into the game, and try to stop play by blowing them at crucial moments. I’ve seen the players hesitate once or twice, but virtually every time it’s clear to them that the sound is coming from the crowd rather than from the referee’s whistle. Bringing whistles to these games is generally forbidden, by the way, and offenders are usually booted out of the grounds.
Oh yeah: Yankees suck, and A-Rod’s a douche. Go O’s!
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
And? Where did I ever say A-Rod did or did not act in a sportsmanlike manner. I specifically said that people are full of it if they think baseball is about sportsmanship, it isn’t.
[/QUOTE]
Who said baseball was “about sportsmanship”? Nobody.
The OP asks if Rodriguez behaved in an unsportsmanlike manner. He did. Case closed. Well, until he gets beaned.
I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. Rule 7.09 defines interference; I’ll post it and anyone who wants to read it can come to their own conclusions.
Show me the part of the rule that says verbally confusing the fielder is illegal – it’s not there, and considering that the rulebook goes out of it’s way to define other, non-physical instances of hindrance, I think your case is very weak.
Failing that, show me a previous example of the rule being enforced in the way you describe.
The rules aside, I think this particular incident is of questionable sportsmanship, only because there’s a small injury risk involved. By far, however, the guy who comes off the worst is the Jays’ 3rd Baseman. He made a fool of himself in the field, then threw a hissy fit at the guy who tricked him with a grade-school ploy. “How dare you tell me that my shoelaces are untied!”
As for A-Rod’s slap in the playoffs, evryone says how pathetic it was, but they tend to ignore that he had a very good chance of getting away with it – if he had, it would have been infamous, but far from pathetic.
There’s also a mention in Moneyball about A-Rod “cheating” by looking back to see where the catcher is setting up just before the pitch is thrown.
So, yeah, it does seem like Rodriguez frequently does the little things that break various unwritten rules in baseball. Traditionaly, the punishment for such is to plunk the guy with a pitch. If A-Rod is willing to run that risk – or if opposing teams are unwilling to throw at someone of his stature – then more power to him.
– VarlosZ (Mets fan)
You need to understand, when A-Rod yells on the basepaths, and the 3rd baseman drops the ball, he’s a big cheater. When Jose Reyes dances up and down the basepaths causing the pitcher to move his hand slightly and commit his second balk to allow in the tying run, that’s good baseball.
A Rod is going to get hit by the pitcher the next time he plays them. If he’s lucky it will be below the neck.
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
You need to understand, when A-Rod yells on the basepaths, and the 3rd baseman drops the ball, he’s a big cheater. When Jose Reyes dances up and down the basepaths causing the pitcher to move his hand slightly and commit his second balk to allow in the tying run, that’s good baseball.
[/QUOTE]
I assume you’re being ironic.
If you are, and you truly think those two things are essentially the same in terms of sportsmanship, you’re kidding yourself.
[QUOTE=Quercus]
Is there anything you do think is ‘wrong’ in sports? Intentionally injuring a player on the other team? How about intentionally injuring them when they’re not in the game (say, poisoning their food, or just shooting them on the way to the ballpark)? Bribing officials?
[/QUOTE]
Sure. There’s tons of stuff I think are “wrong” in sports. There’s a difference between what I think is “wrong” and what I think may be worth trying. I’m reminded of a college football game a lot of people probably don’t remember, in the 1989 (or 88?) Fiesta Bowl Notre Dame played West Virginia. West Virginia had come virtually out of nowhere to be considered one of the top ~3 or 4 teams in the country and both West Virginia and Notre Dame were undefeated. West Virginia had an incredibly quick-footed, scrambling quarterback, Major Harris. Very early in the game one of the Notre Dame defensive backs drilled Harris extremely hard after the whistle had clearly been blown, Harris was injured and unable to play almost almost the entire first half, and when he came back in he was clearly unable to throw the ball well. West Virginia lost the core of its offense and Notre Dame went on to win 34-21.
There’s some strong indication that Lou Holtz’s defensive coordinator at the time explicitly told the player to injure Harris after the whistle was blown.
Notre Dame won the game and became consensus national champions that year. I like the Irish, but always felt that that victory was tainted. I said I think you should continually “push” the rules, you shouldn’t clearly and explicitly break them in an attempt to injure another player in order to win the game.
Plus as a fan, that game sucked. I had been given a ticket to go to the Fiesta Bowl at the time and while I wasn’t a die hard fan of ND and hadn’t heard much about West Virginia, I was genuinely interested in seeing the game. The '88 Irish were one of the best Irish teams during my lifetime, and I had read quite a lot of hype about Harris and his unorthodox quarterbacking style, I wanted to see a tough, competitive football game. Taking Harris out of the game in the first quarter more or less destroyed any chance of seeing that.
[QUOTE=RickJay]
Who said baseball was “about sportsmanship”? Nobody.
The OP asks if Rodriguez behaved in an unsportsmanlike manner. He did. Case closed. Well, until he gets beaned.
[/QUOTE]
This wasn’t posted in IMHO and was not posted explicitly as a poll as to whether or not we thought A-Rod acted in an unsportsmanlike manner. If it’s your opinion that no thread on the SDMB should ever deviate whatsoever beyond the incredibly narrow definition of the OP, and that once the OP’s thread title question has been answered that the thread should be closed, you should probably start addressing most of the threads on Great Debates and the Pit.
[QUOTE=DanBlather]
A Rod is going to get hit by the pitcher the next time he plays them. If he’s lucky it will be below the neck.
[/QUOTE]
Meh, a lot of pitchers won’t do retaliatory bean-balls anymore. It usually gets you suspended for a few games and at the Major League level that’s several thousand dollars, a lot of players aren’t willing to deal with it; especially when it could also cost your team the game. Umpire’s have a ton of discretion in ejecting pitchers, I’ve seen pitchers get ejected for throwing high inside in a game where tensions are running high, if a Jays pitcher beaned A-Rod intentionally, umps could probably actually see that, and respond accordingly.
Pedro Martinez or Roger Clemens would bean him no questions asked, but pitchers like them, IMHO are more an exception these days. Back in the Don Drysdale era I’d be willing to bet money A-Rod was going to get a retaliatory beaning, not so much today.
Keep in mind, if a Jays pitcher beans A-Rod intentionally, what’s to stop the Yanks pitcher from beaning one of the Jays guys? These games of brinksmanship often lead to bench-clearings in baseball, and I doubt very seriously the Jays care enough to escalate this to that level.
I’m not kidding. Two players on the basepaths, each acting up in an attempt to distract another player and cause them to screw up. In the Reyes case, he’s trying to ilicit a muscle twitch which will automatically drive in a run. Because that’s real good baseball, the umpire telling someone he gets to score now because the pitcher twitched, I can barely contain my excitement.
It’s lousy baseball, taking advantage of the single worst rule in all of sport. The balk only seems to come up when there’s a ton of pressure, everyone on the edge of their seats, and it’s a damn dead ball play, the umpire points and the runners advance. So, Reyes runs around third base while the pitcher is set, forced by stupid rule to be absolutely motionless, trying to get him to move that arm ever so slightly so that his batter doesn’t actually have to swing the bat. That play gets lauded as brilliance, Lou Brock! Maury Wills! A-Rod says something distracting that causes some career minor leaguer to miss a pop up and he’s a bush league cheater.
In the immortal words of David St. Hubbins “Its such a fine line between stupid and clever.”
Actually, i don’t recall anyone saying that Reyes was “brilliant.” In fact, my first thought when he was balked in for the tying run the other night was to feel sorry for the pitcher. I actually think the balk rule should be moderated somewhat too, but i’m not sure it should be eliminated or we’d have chaos on the mound and on the bases.
But, whether you like the balk rule or not, a big difference between the two plays is that pitchers (and everyone else in baseball) expect runners on the bases to take leads and to move around. It’s a common and legal part of the game.
It’s clear from what happened the other night that players don’t generally expect to hear a call of “Mine” from right behind them on the infield unless it’s from their own teammate calling for the ball.
Also, your earlier comment comparing Rodriguez’s shout with Reyes’ moving around seemed to imply that people were only slamming A-Rod because:
A. He’s A-Rod
and
B. He’s a Yankee.
Let me be quite clear: if Jose Reyes, or anyone else in the major leagues, did was A-Rod did the other night, i’d still think it was bush league shitty sportsmanship.
Sure, we probably wouldn’t be talking about this if it wasn’t A-Rod, but that doesn’t change whether it’s right or not, and whether it’s an interesting question. As far as being fair to A-Rod, well I say you get the big bucks, you get the big scrutiny. If he doesn’t like it, he can become a librarian.
And it’s interesting because it is near the edge. Compare with, say, yelling as someone takes a jumpshot in basketball. That’s annoying and not very classy (and would make me not want to play with them in a recreational game), but clearly not violating written or unwritten rules (as far as I know).
But I think a runner yelling ‘Mine!’ at a fielder is different for two reasons: 1) the runner is basically impersonating someone on the fielder’s team. I think everyone agrees that for instance wearing the wrong color jersey is unsportsmanlike. In fact, while I’m not saying there isn’t one, I can’t think of any situation where pretending to be on the other team is acceptable. But this is really only important because
And for the record, this is way different from a hidden ball trick – there’s no danger, and no . Or for that matter, trying to induce a balk, though I agree that the balk rule could be made slightly more reasonable.
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
I’m not kidding. Two players on the basepaths, each acting up in an attempt to distract another player and cause them to screw up. In the Reyes case, he’s trying to ilicit a muscle twitch which will automatically drive in a run. Because that’s real good baseball, the umpire telling someone he gets to score now because the pitcher twitched, I can barely contain my excitement.
It’s lousy baseball, taking advantage of the single worst rule in all of sport. The balk only seems to come up when there’s a ton of pressure, everyone on the edge of their seats, and it’s a damn dead ball play, the umpire points and the runners advance. So, Reyes runs around third base while the pitcher is set, forced by stupid rule to be absolutely motionless, trying to get him to move that arm ever so slightly so that his batter doesn’t actually have to swing the bat. That play gets lauded as brilliance, Lou Brock! Maury Wills! A-Rod says something distracting that causes some career minor leaguer to miss a pop up and he’s a bush league cheater.
In the immortal words of David St. Hubbins “Its such a fine line between stupid and clever.”
[/QUOTE]
I like the balk rule. In that particular game, Benitez addressed the rubber. He then stepped away. It wasn’t because he wasn’t absolutely motionless in this particular situation (there are many facets to “balking”), he recanted after he committed. If you address the rubber, YOU MUST PITCH.
The balk is so infrequently called in the NL (almost NEVER in the AL) that it’s hardly a rule to hate. Besides, Benitez knows the rules. Out of 12,771 career pitches, he’s only balked 4 times. He knows how NOT to balk. He did.
Without the balk rule, pitchers would just be up there willy-nilly, faking out batters, picking off runners left and right, etc. It’s a good rule.
The third baseman should’ve caught the ball - stepping aside was bush league. And he was shamed and over-reacted, also bush league.
A-Rod, given all the things going on with him right now, should recognize that he is going to be scrutinized more than anyone, and any action that might be marginal for anyone else will likely be over the line for him.
Ultimately, it achieved the desired result (the ball was missed and the side was not retired), and A-Rod was not penalized. Therefore it was okay to do in a very pragmatic sense.
But fool me one, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
It was a cheap move, so I wouldn’t try to spend it that often - but it was effective that one time. And just like it was A-Rod’s prerogative to make this cheap move, it wouldn’t surprise me if he got brushed back next time he played the BJays…also a cheap move, but plenty of ability to make a case within the context of the unwritten rules of baseball…
Just saw a good analogy: a defensive lineman yelling ‘hut’ in order to get the offence to false-start. It was claimed this is illegal. Anyone know for sure?
I heard a NYC sports radio guy talking last night about the Reyes play as an example of why the Mets are exciting to watch and the Yankees aren’t. I can’t say that it was played up all over the place as a great play, but clearly nobody would consider it unsportsmanlike.
I wasn’t intending to make it an A-Rod or Yankee thing, so much as commenting on how two acts with similar intentions (disrupting the opponent) and similar outcomes could be so differently thought of by fans. Kind of musing about how we decided that “mine!” is a bush league move but faking out the pitcher is clever gamesmanship.
I wouldn’t actually mind the balk rule if it didn’t seem to be universally applied when pitchers inadvertantly violate the rule under pressure situations. Let the players play, and let that decide the outcome.