Two examples, are they both equal?
1)Two men talking in private: “Man, did you see that girl in that dress? I’d likes to get some of that!”
2) Trump’s “Grab’em by the pussy” comments.
I acknowledge both are bad. But are they both equally as bad?
No, the first is about seduction, the second is about actuall sexual assault that he committed.
Also, one is quite common while the other is quite rare.
No. The second is a frank admission of sexual assault.
Also, I’d disagree that the first example is necessarily bad. I’d say it’s completely normal. Indeed, I’d contend that anybody, male or female, who has never made an objectifying comment about an attractive member of their preferred gender is either deeply repressed or simply asexual. You should hear how some of the women in my team talk about guys they find attractive. They don’t pull their punches, and they don’t save it for locker rooms either!
I’m sorry guys. I meant to clarify this in my OP: For the sake of this conversation, let’s assume Trump’s comments were just “talk” and he didn’t actually do any of those things.
I mean, I personally do believe he did those things. But the thing I would like to hash out is, even if we took his words at face value, and he was just talking shit, and “all guys do it” I would still disagree with Trump. His brand of “Locker room talk” is way worse than what I perceive to be typical locker room talk between guys.
Talking about finding someone attractive and wanting to have sex with them normalizes finding people attractive and wanting to have sex. I’m OK with that being normalized.
Talking about sexual assault normalizes sexual assault. That’s very different to me.
Yeah, but in the locker room, you’re not under oath, and you are free to brag about or exaggerate your exploits all you like. Which would not necessary correspond with the facts.
If you go in a locker room and brag about participating in a gang rape, for example, that is not a “confession of guilt” of an actual crime, but just jock bullshit, which runs very deep in that kind of environment.
Brag: Yep, raped that girl good last night! Beat her with a 2x4 and pinned her good!
If you’re hanging out with guys who are talking about gang rape like it’s a joke, I’d suggest that you’re failing to pick up what they’re putting down. They may actually be gang raping women. Certainly you should be telling them that they’re crossing a line, verbally, that should not be crossed.
Let me find Master Wang-Ka’s tale…
(emphasis added)
WTF?? I have never been around anyone who would joke or brag about raping someone, whether true or not. And I’ve had no shortage of friends who would gladly comment on which women they found hot, in sometimes crude terms. Yet they all refrained from bragging about sexual assault, and if anyone said something like that, they’d have been immediately chastised. WTF is wrong with your friends?
If you brag about being a dick then you are a dick, even if you haven’t actually done the things you are bragging about. You obviously think those things are worthy of bragging about, which makes you a dick. (I mean really, what kind of person do you have to be to brag about raping someone?) Edit: The “you” in the above sentence is the hypothetical bragger, not jtur88.
On the other hand, making mild objectifying comments about how nice/hot/sexy someone looks is really just letting a bit of the sexual animal out for some conversation and doesn’t make you a dick at all, it just makes you a mammal.
no, because I’ve never heard anything like #2 past maybe 10th grade.
I think the underlying point is that when he made the vulgar comments, he was not in a locker room.
Depends on how much of Trump’s comment you use. He did say “they let you do it”. If they let you do it, it’s not sexual assault. In the hypothetical, he hasn’t done anything, it’s just talk. And if it’s just talk, it’s a hypothetical. No reason his hypothetical can’t be cases where “they let your do it”.
It can certainly still be sexual assault if they “let him do it.” Letting you do it isn’t the same as consent.
A person in a position of power might do something vulgar and unwanted, such as grabbing a pussy, and the victim can feel unable to stop the attack for a variety of reasons - fear of being physically hurt, fear of losing their job, etc. That doesn’t mean it’s not assault.
“Sir, I’m going to have to arrest you for punching that man in the face.”
“But he let me do it! I mean, I did it, so obviously he let me!”
I am not an apologist for Trump in the least, but locker room talk is shorthand for conversations between men with no women present. There is no actual requirement for it to take place in a locker room. It only requires the absence of women observers.
Doesn’t matter. Trump bragged about getting away with sexual assault. That is obviously worse than the garden-variety crude objectification you offer in comparison, and that’s not dependent on whether he actually committed the crime in question.
Years ago, I was listening to a morning radio show that featured comedian guests. These two guys were needling each other, when one says “Man, you are such a master of observational humor. Finding that common thread that we can all relate to, like ‘You know when you get nervous and strangle the hooker?’” I lost it.
That’s Trump to me, taking a concept we are supposed to all relate to and perverting it, leaving me feeling his sliminess.
Objectifying is locker room talk. Privileged assault is not.
I don’t actually think the first one is bad at all. I mean, yeah, it’s objectifying, but sometimes people (men and women) see someone they’re sexually attracted to just on the basis of looks. This is not horrifying. This is normal.
The second one is bragging about sexual assault. Which is not normal, at all, and is in fact horrifying.
I’ve been in a lot of semi-locker-room situations (been the only woman in an all-male company, the only girl in the pub with a gang of guy friends, the only woman sharing a dressing room with a bunch of guys for months) and I’ve heard plenty of the first kind of talk. I’ve heard it from women, too. Almost always, there was nothing nasty in it, nothing aggressive or dehumanising.
I’ve never once heard the second kind. Because it is not normal. It is not how normal men think about women, or treat women, or want to treat women. It’s enormously fucked up, and so is the fact that Trump and his supporters are trying to normalise it.
Seriously? So if you grab some woman’s boob on the train, and she’s too shocked or intimidated to struggle or scream, it’s not sexual assault?
Seriously?
The first is an observation. It can be said more or less politely: “she is beautiful” is more polite than “I’d hit that!”
The second is a brag about sexual assault. There is no polite way to brag about sexually assaulting someone.
I liked the explanation from the Daily Show. Paraphrasing, “I went to have dinner with a beautiful lady, then I drove her to her stead and I proceeded to have my way with her despite her protestations” is elegantly phrased but unacceptable; “oh babe, can I hit that ass? No? Oh, OK, pity” is crude but acceptable and, from the point of view of the babe, even desirable.