Here are defenses I’ve seen on Facebook and the media so far - If you have others feel free to add them. Some are quite creative.
(His comments were awful but he apologized. Let’s move on - Melania Trump response)
(Boys will be boys)
(They gave Bush a pass why the hate for Donald?)
(Obama did worse stuff!)
(Hey … it was a private conversation it’s not like to was the dinner table)
(JFK did worse …)
(He’s just a regular guy …)
Oh please. Many many people have said things slike this. In my younger days when I was with the guys, we’d say things somewhat like that. I know I’ve sad things like, I’d jump her bones, and the like. And women - many of them have said similar things, like Hey, I’d wrap my legs around that, or I’d f### him in a heartbeat.
Who doesn’t agree with this, and why not?
Um, they aren’t running as a Republican?
Trump’s comments went well beyond run-of-the-mill observations that someone appears f**kable.
Trump permitted Howard Stern to call his daughter “a piece of ass”.
Trump bragged about trying to force himself on a married woman.
Do “many many people” do things like that? Perhaps. But I wouldn’t want any of them as my president.
That’s not what Trump said, though. The comments that you mention imply consent. For example, the statement “I would jump her bones” is conditional - the 'would" implies “if the situation were favorable and she were so inclined as well.” That’s a substantive difference from what Trump said.
Here’s Trump: “You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. … Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.” Trump’s comments completely disregard the agency of the women he’s talking about. “I don’t even wait” to gauge her interest or not, and if “they let you do it,” then you’re home free, regardless of how they feel about it. Someone who talks this way about other people is a failure as a human being.
So? Trump is not a career politician. Many career politicians learn early on (I imagine) to guard their words and actions.
Still - so what? True his words are offensive. If my words were ever taped and replayed, I’d be apologizing for them.
So what?
Did the women fight him off? Sure he initiated it but if they did not say and act No, it may have been consensual.
You think “consent” is “anything other than fighting him off”? That’s not what consent means.
You’ve never thought or said things like that? Never ever? If you did, it doesn’t make you a bad person. Most normal people get horny, and some vebalize it.
I think we’ve found the problem. (Hint: sexual assault law has moved on since biblical times, when if a woman didn’t cry out during it, she was stoned to death for adultery).
Trump and Bush were miked, though. They should have remembered their comments could be heard by others and were being recorded. They should not have assumed their conversation was private and should have been more guarded about what they said.
There’s a difference, at least IMHO, between “I’d totally do her” and or even (amongst friends/not the ‘target’) ‘wow, she’s got a nice rack’ and what he said “Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything” or “Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.”
To say it differently, what you said (the first part of my example) was, more or less, and crudely I’ll admit, saying you like someone or found them attractive. What Trump said was admitting to actively using his position of power (‘you’re a star, you can do anything’) to just walk up and and rape or harass someone. He wasn’t telling his friend some girl was hot, he was saying ‘I’m swimming in money, I can do whatever I want [sexually]’.
It should be noted that I’ve never been on board with the idea that men rape women for one reason and one reason only, power, to either display that they have power or show that they have more power than them. I hear that a lot. I think it’s the case, quite a bit I’ll bet, that men rape women for no other reason then that they’re horny (or drunk/high) and decide they’re going to get laid tonight. I’m absolutely not saying Trump raped anyone, but his statements sure gave more credence to the rape=power argument.
TL;DR, no, most guys haven’t said this. Most guys have said what you said, but they haven’t said what Trump said. Most guys don’t have the monetary ability to say what he said.
Also, and I’ve said this in the very, very few political threads I’ve participated in, you have to keep in mind, part of being in politics is that you’re going to get attacked by the other side, sometimes the reasons don’t even make sense. It’s just part of the job. The R’s that defend him, would vilify and D that said, literally, the exact same thing. The example I’ve used in the past is when some of my R friends tore apart Obama for doing a sort of half salute to some soldiers. Just ripped him a new one. I posted a picture of Bush doing, literally, the exact same thing and got a bunch of ‘well, that’s totally different’ responses. The election is very strange, but we all know that in general, your candidate can do no wrong and the opponent is just the worst person in the world. The could both go to the same charity event, both donate the same amount of money, both give similar speeches written by the same speech writer with no politics in them. R’s and D’s alike proceed to destroy the other person, it’s what they do, it’s part of (at least American) life.
If you find someone attractive, and move to kiss them, if they recognize who you are (because you are famous) and they don’t push away or, what’s more, they permit the kiss, it is consensual. No?
IMO, there’s nothing wrong with thinking, you can think about whatever you want all you want. Once you start acting on it, that changes things. In the mean time, no thought police here.
The fact you think this is ok speaks volumes. Grab pussy first, get permission later. Is that the proper order?
If you move to kiss someone who neither expects nor wants you to and she freezes, is that consent? She’s not doing anything to fight you off. She’s not even saying “no” - she’s literally frozen in shock and horror.
FUCK NO THAT ISN’T CONSENT.
Consent would be if she kissed you back. “Consent” is an action that she takes. A lack of resistance isn’t sufficient.
No of course not! That is not what I am saying. If he reaches for a woman’s crotch, and if she sees him reach and she does not pull back or turn or say no but instead stands there and lets him do it, and after he has touched her crotch she does not act or say No, then hasn’t she allowed it? Isn’t it consensual?
I fully agree with this.
In my ost that you quoted, I said she permits the kiss. She has allowed it.
Also, his words were him explaining what he does/did, so if it’s words were offensives, shouldn’t his actions be as well? I haven’t really kept up with the media story surrounding this, but haven’t a few women come forward basically confirming that he actually does do this. Just go up and grab them or kiss them? Not even a ‘nice shoes’ first?
BTW, if someone takes your wallet and you don’t fight them off or explicitly tell them not to, does that mean you consented to it?