The Russian bear has been out of the cage for a few years. Is this just saber ratteling or are we facing a second Cold War? Story: MSNBC.
This isn’t a random event, it’s a retaliation for our moves to station missile defense systems in Poland and Czech Republic. They see that move by us as a direct challenge to their military capability, and we’ve been doing little to assure them otherwise. Something about Iran…
I don’t believe a “new Cold War” is at hand, Russia has been emboldened by the recent economic surge they’re experiencing as a result of oil prices. I don’t think Russia will ever be a very close ally as they derive much of their national psychology from the Cold War. So do we for that matter. Russia has always been a world player. Why is it surprising that we have to deal with them as such?
The problem Americans have with Russia is that since the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union we have never, ever let them forget that we won. By default or by victory, we remained where they fell. We haven’t attempted to bring them into the international community and they feel scorned, for a myriad of reasons.
I think Medvedev is giving the USA an “out”. we can graciously accept his offer, and get our missiles out of Poland (the poles were only asking us to pay them $1.5 billion for the favorof basing our anti-missile shield there). I would say to Obama: take it, and start the process of dismantling NATO!
NATO won’t be dismantled. None of its members want that, nor do the member-hopefuls that see it as a safety net from Russian “aggression”.
When we leave Iraq ,it will be a big target for powerful neighbors. We created a vacuum. Russia and China will be wondering if they could move in and get all that oil.Iran will think about it too. It is hard to resist that much oil and the power that goes along with it.
If someone does , we will have to protect our rights to the oil. Yep, Bush created a real shitstorm for us to deal with in the future.
Given what has happened, why would anybody in their right mind WANT to invade Iraq? The Iraqis now a have a reasonable government, and are well-armed. I just can’t imagine anybody being so stupid as to walk in and try to take over!
Nope.
McCain failed to get elected last night, so rather than four more years of us poking the bear, we’ll get some actual diplomacy.
Why? My gut reaction is that this is a horrible idea, but explain your thinking. I’m all ears.
I don’t see it being dismantled either. However, assuming relations with the Russians don’t return to a Cold War-like state, I do think that in the near-future it is possible NATO could morph into a different type of organization that the Russians would feel less paranoid about.
Well, it’s basically already done that. See NATO-Russia Council and the various anti-terrorism programs currently being developed (counter-terrorism technology, involvement in Afghanistan, etc.)
Russia hasn’t the strength or heart for another Cold War. And in any case the fault lines have moved east.
NATO will not be dismantled, but if it continue its harebrained expansion into Eastern Europe it will morph into another kind of organisation. One with premium A and discount B members. The old premium members for which the defense umbrella still cover and the new discount members whom are allowed to send men to international missions but no one really think we are going to go to war for with for instance Russia. NATO and the USA should butt the hell out of Georgia and especially Ukraine (and Kosovo too). You only fuck things up. Let EU handle it. In 50 years they’ll all be EU members and there will be no problem. But no. The USA had to push NATO on them and fuck everything up. Even when as in Ukraine, the majority of the population want nothing of it and it would tear the country apart.
Just read that Putin wants to be president again!
NATO is an anachronism-it was set up to defend W. Europe against the USSR (doesn’t exist anymore).
NATO memebership is why the USA spends >90$ billion on bases in W. Europe. That is a complee waste of money. It ought to be replaced with a agreement 9incorporating Russia). You can’t blame Putin-he has given us fair warning.
I like how decisively the EU stepped in to stop ethnic cleansing in the collapse of Yugoslavia. That was really well done.
And really, if the elected officials of a country court NATO membership, if the people don’t like it, they should vote those officials out.
As far as I’ve been able to tell, the USA hasn’t “pushed” NATO on anyone.
No.
And once we leave, the Iranians are in a position to make Iraq part of their sphere of influence (in the sense that Mexico is part of ours) without firing a shot. Which is not a bad thing under the circumstances.
The Bosnian independence declaration was way premature and as was other nations accepting it. But that was then and there’s a difference between stopping wars and starting wars. NATO is supposed to do the former, but lately has been doing more of the latter. First Kosovo. Then the so-called “missile defense systems” in Poland. And on to Georgia and Ukraine. etc. NATO is supposed to be a stabilizing factor. But recently seem to have been doing more to create conflict in Europe. All these countries. Serbia, Moldavia, Ukraine, Georgia, White Russia (& hopefully Russia also eventually) will some time in this century become EU members. Until then we can afford to leave the various small conflicts in a frozen state. There’s no hurry. 100 years is nothing. But some people seem to have an agenda that rush the process and which emphasis NATO over EU.
If they have democracy you mean. Which is more than a little questionable for a place like Georgia. As for Ukraine - where democracy already has moved from tragedy to farce and on to a Benny Hill sketch - the Ukrainian pro-West president which took over after the nauseating named “Orange revolution”, now has popularity numbers that would make Bush appear a rock star by comparison. To top it off he has accused his PM of being a traitor (and a lunatic pre-menstrual women too – of course he might have a point there) and thrown himself into a suicidal early election. He is finished. The next president will turn his – or more likely her – face over yonder east. Timoshenko – leave it to the ultimate populist to know which way the wind is blowing - has already been batting her eyes suggestively at Putin. In any case, seeing as she is from Dnepropetrovsk which is a Russian – a Russian / Ukrainian – city and in the heartland of pro-Russia eastern Ukraine, this should sit better with her. Btw. The central street in Dnepropetrovsk, which is kind of the Champ Elysee of Dnepropetrovsk, is called Karl Marx Pr., following it you come to the central square, which has a big statue of Lenin. There’s also a statue of Lenin on the central street of Kiev, although not so prominently placed. Some might like to pretend otherwise, but these people are Russians. They would never accept an anti-Russian military organisation to set up shop in their country. Why on Earth should they? It’s going to tear the country apart before it would come to that. Imagine a NATO naval base in Sevastopol (where the government building is still flying the Russian flag). It’s not going to happen. And yet that was more or less what Cheney suggested on his recent charm tour of the region.
Perhaps that’s because you haven’t been to eastern or southern Ukraine then? Because, let me tell you, they will tell you otherwise. And tell you where you can stick NATO too.
We rights do we have to the oil? :dubious:
Its present mission is still viable, but its time to have a serious thought to where it goes in the twenty first century.
Declan