Exactly. But we’re not all there yet! And if we wait until we are there, we’ll never get anything done.
The source of your quote also says, “It is only by working the rituals, that any significant degree of understanding can develop. If you wait until you are positive you understand all aspects of the ceremony before beginning to work, you will never begin to work.”
― Lon Milo DuQuette, The Magick of Aleister Crowley: A Handbook of the Rituals of Thelema
Crowley said when you do a working, you must have perfect certainty that it worked. The famous story of the ice cream cone and rent, y’know? But most of us lack that certainty. The “arts-n-crafts” of modern witchcraft are designed to talk to the doubter that’s telling us it will never work, that tugs on our mental strings with annoying regularity. They amuse that inner 6 year old and distract her with smells and bells so that the Will can be made strong and sure.
I don’t know if this mirror is really cursed, I don’t know if magick exerts an external force, I don’t know if it’s all in our heads. I do know it doesn’t matter much. When a person is upset, they need help, and if I give them something to do, then more often than not, they’re not upset at the end of it. But I’ve got to craft (heh) that “something to do” in a way that convinces their inner 6 year old that doubt is not welcome right now. Best way to stop a kid from whining at you, whether real or mental, is to keep them busy with something at least superficially resembling the project the adult is working on.
I’ve been doing this long enough that I don’t always need the props for myself. My inner 6 year old is mostly shut-up-able with a stern look (except when She isn’t). But I don’t expect that a person asking how to exorcise or cleanse a mirror is working at that same level of modern magick. If they don’t know or can’t figure out how to create such a simple working on their own, they’re very likely still at the smells-and-bells stage. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just sounds silly and invites derision from Muggles. (Who then find their lucky hat and take their seat on the third cushion on the couch, cross their fingers and say a prayer to Jesus before their favorite football team begins playing.)
Got to agree with you, WhyNot. I know some people who are absolutely convinced that the exact form of the ritual, the exact pronunciation of the words, the precise materials… are all absolute requirements in order for something to work. Some of the planning I’ve seen for rituals is well beyond anal retentive in the amount of detail and ‘props’.
On my end, since that is what they believe is required, then it IS what is required, and I do not question their beliefs, or their skill, nor do I look down on them. Some people need ritual as part of their lives, and incorporating it into their magick makes perfect sense for who they are. Honestly, the only thing I really argue with people is the whole ‘words have power and it has to be spoken in X language thing’.
On my end, there are times and places that I use forms and objects, because they help me get where I want to go. Then there are times when I have worked magick spontaneously and while doing other things and achieved great results. Because the heart and mind were there in the moment.
A-freaking-men! These people give me a headache. It’s all fun and games until someone gets stabbed with my athame, bitches. Stop arguing about the colors of the candles and cast the damn circle already!
I love his comparison between speaking bad Enochian to Angels and a mouse jumping up on your foot and speaking English in a thick Mouse accent. Are you going to turn up your nose if he mixes up his Ls and his Rs? Hell, no! You’re going to be like, “Holy shit! It’s a talking mouse! I’d better listen to see what he’s saying!” :eek:
Sometimes, in the ballpark is all you need to round the bases. Or something. I’m not good with the sports metaphors…
What kills me is people like one long-time practitioner who insisted that certain ‘magick’ words had to be spoken in Greek. Not ancient Greek, modern Greek. “Because they’ve been used as Words of Power in that language for so long” :rolleyes: And yet in all his time, he had never bothered to learn Greek, which I would think would be moderately important if you insisted on performing rituals in that language. Got pretty bent out of shape when I said “So you’re only intoning words you barely know the meaning of in another language because the word “dýnami̱” somehow has more potency than saying “power” in a language where you understand all of the nuances of that word?”
His answer was; Yes, it has more power. To him I suppose it must, since he believes it.
To me, that’s like one bad tool placed incongruously as a centerpiece on a pile of very carefully selected master tools. The language you use to express and hold your thoughts and ideas is the most important tool of all. If you’re just mouthing ‘words’, then I don’t think you really understand the process.
Joking aside, I am pretty sure that *any *ancient language you care to name can be or is being used (abused?) in the pursuit of ritual practices of some form or another.
It’s not any weirder than Christian people thinking the KJV is THE Bible, or even prefering to use KJV scripture readings or quotations because it seems more resonant and powerful than modern English versions. Cultural priming is a hard set of assumptions to buck, especially if you’re already in need or looking for help.
I’m still vaguely bemused that this thread is on the Dope.
Eh, do whatever you want. The rest of us are trying to figure out what to do with these pickle jars full of acid, silver and glass fragments. Apparently down the drain is a no no. I’m thinking of gifting it to the person who gave me the mirror.
Different traditions, different languages. Some use latin, some greek, some hebrew. To some degree, it’s tied to the phony history some organizations have constructed for themselves, trying to claim that they originated long ago and are merely ‘maintaining ancient traditions’.
And Christianity at least has some genuine antiquity to its beliefs and rituals, and there are specific methods of de-sanctifying a church. Not that old=good, but at least it wasn’t made up last century. And the “strong magical tradition” of Chaos was, near as I can tell, made up last week. Rule of Thumb: If the person who invented a religion is still alive, it’s probably horseshit.
Because it’s woo and we are supposed to fight ignorance here. It is not part of the SDMB tradition to suffer fools, at least outside of MPSIMS and GD.
I have chances to feel superior several times a day. This gives me a chance to be superior.
The silver is dissolved in the acid. Dilute the acid and strain out the glass before you pour it down the drain because it will clog your pipes. Just be sure to not strike the side of the bucket before you pour it or the bad mojo will be amplified, like in Homeopathy. This is part of the Grand Unified Woo Theory I’m working on.
Thank you, you’ve made your point. Further commentary is simply theadshitting. We are discussing a hobby that is, for all intents and purposes, completely harmless to you. We’re also in IMHO, not GQ or GD.
Practitioners don’t proselytize, or for the most part, try to con people about their “powers” or abilities. For every delusional asshole thinking he’s becoming a D&D Wizard, there are 100 or more who have no illusions that they’ll ever be able to shoot lightning from their fingertips or cure cancer. And those delusional fuckers would still be that way without ever seeing a ‘magick’ book, which certainly will not contain any instructions on the art of throwing lightning bolts.
In fact, the biggest problem practitioners face is self-righteous people who don’t know a fucking thing about it except a bunch of ignorant and false (mis)information, but aren’t about to let that stand in the way of their gloating about it being ‘woo’.
And yes, as with everything else, Sturgeon’s Law applies to this field as well.
Actually, I do know a fair bit about it and considered it as a possibility once upon a time. I do not dismiss things out of hand, but only after studying them. And as this is IMHO, I stated my HO.
But it was threadshitting in some opinions, and I apologize. Doesn’t make that belief system any more real, in my eyes, but I was impolite. Though I’m not sure where ZPG Zealot’s psychic act in Post 5 stops being an entertainment and starts being a con.
Well, I have my own sensitivities on this. There’s a culture on this board that makes taking big steaming dumps all over certain subjects (religion being the big one) socially acceptable as long as the person claims to be ‘fighting ignorance’, and moderator intervention is extremely unusual in such cases.
But apology accepted.
As for ZPGZealot’s act, I’d say if s/he is lying to people in order to make money, that is the definition of a con. Hell, I’ll take it further. Even if you believe everything you say (which I would find nigh impossible), if you’re doing it to make money off of vulnerable people, you’re doing something morally wrong.
Right. Hell, I have no problem with mythological or sacred or woo questions, if they are phrased Ok. I mean, we go on endlessly about the Wizards and Elves in Tolkien, which is pure fantasy, and posters answer those questions seriously. (very seriously). Or who is the better fictional detective, or Batman vs Superman or The Enterprise vs a Imperial Star Destroyer.
So, this is not “silly”. Woo can be fun. Debating whether or not to use a 5, 6 or even 7 pointed star in Kabbala isn’t a wrong question. But where it crosses the line is when “well, your cash is cursed so let me burn it for you” (which has not actually been uttered here, I agree, but some posts are maybe getting sorta close to that idea). Or “I have a real physical issue, and someone is suggesting this woo.” In those cases, yes, we of the SDMB have even a duty to go “Umm, Laetrile is pure woo. He’s scamming you and you’re going to die. See this cite and this cite and fercrickies sake even Wikipedia.”
As long as it’s harmless fun, let’s not be judgmental.
Guilty as charged. I get grumpy some times, but I’m over it.
That can be gray area. ZPG says s/he primarily does it as a type of nightclub entertainment. I have no problem with making money off that, even if some of the audience believes that some special ability made the act possible. It’s an important part of the act to make them believe, or half-believe, that and most people will go along with it for fun.
Then there are the undescribed private consultations that may or may not involve money changing hands. There are limits to my morality and some people have lots of money and if they want to give me some of it for my insight I will make an honest effort to help while accepting their appreciation. For free I will make the same effort. Either way, if it makes them more likely to follow my obviously wise and insightful suggestions if they think I have Extra-Special Powers then I’ll be their magick man.
It seems that ZPG believes his or her powers go beyond observation skills and a good head and is honestly trying to help people. I don’t really have much trouble with that, same as I don’t have much trouble with most religious people.
Actually, I did neglect the ‘cleanup’ aspect. That’s fairly easy and safe, using common things, too.
Cleanup: Get some Lye. I don’t know where you buy that, but it’s used in making home-made soap, and my sister used to make that, so it’s easily available somewhere. If you can’t find it, go to the hardware or grocery store and look at drain cleaners (like Drano, for example) and read the ingredients. You’re looking for Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide as the primary ingredient. Also get some Baking Soda (grocery store).
Put a little of your Lye or drain cleaner into the pickle jar. Wait a couple of minutes, then…
throw in a pinch of the baking soda. If the baking soda fizzes, go back to step 1 and repeat.
When the baking soda no longer fizzes, you’re done. Dump the liquified curse down any drain (perfectly safe, no hazardous chemical waste), then dispose of the remaining broken mirror glass however you would any other broken glass. All done!
Thanks. I don’t actually practice or buy into the woo, and my input was initially just to point out the way people were being tough on the woosters.
However. If I do ever need to destroy a mirror a la mode de Supernatural, I will know where to find the skinny.
I just keep visualizing my spouse Imp of the Perverse walking in on me in the washroom, crouched beside the toilet with a bubbling pickle jar full of broken glass in my hands.
I get grumpy some times, but I’m over it.