Is being a sociopath a job requirement for salesmen these days?

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Accurate though. You read a book that is written down to the level of idiots, and now you think you know everything. You’re an idiot. Please, by all means, buy everything you want online. It’s available there, you’ll feel better for having “outsmarted” the system, and I’ll feel better for not having to deal with you. I can save my talents for people who deserve them.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, of course that book is my only experience, right?

Do you want the details of the stories where my fellow car salesmen were HOWLING with laughter at how they fucked the customers?

Honda salesmen they were, best selling fucking cars in the world.

And they are just there to “help” the customer because they are so professional and talented and highly skilled. Right. I’m an idiot. And you’re a liar and thief.

82

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
I most certainly do understand that. And let’s keep that right up front. The commissioned salespeople are NOT there to act in my best interest. They are there because it is in the best interest of the company, and presumably in the best interest of the commissioned salesperson. They have agreed to participate in a relationship that benefits them both at my expense. Thus, we are adversaries.

[/QUOTE]

Apparently you missed the bit about where not all commissions are based on the price of the product. In that case, it IS in the salesman’s best interest to help you find what you want, because the important thing is the sale, not the price you pay.

Helpful salesperson=happy customer who’s more likely to buy the product.
There are assholes in every line of work, from the salesperson who is trying to screw the customers to the computer store looking to undercut the competition by selling pirated software.

83

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Yes, of course that book is my only experience, right?

Do you want the details of the stories where my fellow car salesmen were HOWLING with laughter at how they fucked the customers?

[/QUOTE]

I’ve never been a car salesmen, but I worked with them for six months in the recent past. Some of them are idiots and will treat all of their customers like chumps and some of them are respectable. The respectable ones manage to be able to stay in the system, make a lot of repeat business, and don’t generally try to screw people over for shits and giggles. It’s a LOT different from what I’ve seen with other sales positions. Just because you were around a bunch of sleazebags at your particular car sales job doesn’t mean that ALL salesmen are “out to get you.”

Mind you, I don’t do sales. What I “sell” is information, and, really, because it’s free to the customer, I get to decide exactly how helpful I’m going to be based on how much of a dick and how helpful they are to me. If I’m trying to narrow down your search on information to something that’s going to actually provide more than the most basic piece on the topic, you better cooperate and listen to me and not be a smartass. If you do, you’ll get attentive help for as long as I can get away with it and a lot of detailed information for your needs; if you’re willing, I’ll throw in some side banter while I’m doing searches to make the time go a little faster. If you’re not listening to me, treating me like I barely got a GED and should be flipping burgers, or being a pain in my ass in general, you’re going to get one, maybe two sources that may or may not be exactly what you need, and I’m going to point out where you can find them while you look at me dumbfounded.

Do me a favor and don’t shop anywhere in person. Buy all your shit off of Amazon and stay out of the libraries everywhere. You are not worth anyone’s time to deal with because you’re a moron who thinks they know everything. Your rants don’t lead to any cohesive solution that would appease you and still keep businesses running and thus are worthless.

84

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Yes, of course that book is my only experience, right?
[/quote]

You keep mentioning it. I assumed you were quite proud of it, I mean, reading a book! That’s a accomplishment! Do you think you’ll ever read another one?

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Do you want the details of the stories where my fellow car salesmen were HOWLING with laughter at how they fucked the customers?
Honda salesmen they were, best selling fucking cars in the world.
[/quote]

Now suddenly it all becomes clear. The reason you’re so convinced that salesmen are nothing but thieves is because that’s what type of salesman you your self were! Look, it’s not my fault you made your crack money selling Simonizer packages to little old ladies for three times their cost, and I don’t care how much you may have come to Jesus regretting what you’ve done, that doesn’t give you the right to denigrate me or my profession, or to assume that just because you were a scum of the earth hustler then all salesmen must be the same. Some of us have the integrity to not compromise our morals in the first place.

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
And they are just there to “help” the customer because they are so professional and talented and highly skilled.
[/quote]

Yes, that’s correct. #1 because I enjoy helping other people, but #2, as I’ve said over and over again, because from a purely mercenary standpoint, THAT’S THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO MAKE THE MOST MONEY, and that’s true to a some degree in all types of sales, even car and real estate sales. Sure there are hustlers and con men everywhere, but with perhaps a very few exceptions, the top people in sales, year in and year out, are not. They can’t be, because believe it or not, screwing your customer is not an infinitely sustainable strategy in sales.

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Right. I’m an idiot.
[/quote]

First 100% factual thing you’ve posted in this thread.

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
And you’re a liar and thief.
[/QUOTE]

No, I’m a professional. Seems to me that we’ve now demonstrated that it’s you who is the liar and the thief, and you’re projecting it onto everyone else. It’s rather pathetic really. I’m truly sorry you sold your integrity for a few lousy dollars, but just because you don’t have any honor doesn’t mean that nobody does.

85

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
In my book there is no excuse for a salesman not knowing their stock.
[/QUOTE]

I invite you to step into the exciting world of Electronics Retail, where stuff is often obsolete before you’ve read the Techie Specs for it and so many of the products are practically identical to each other that you’ll just confuse yourself if you try and memorise all of them.

Printers are an excellent example- most printers in the $75-$100 range are pretty much identical to each other; it really doesn’t matter which one you buy. There are minor differences in the cost of cartridges, but they’re all Multifunctions with decent scanners and PictBridge/Card Readers. Don’t interrogate the staff about them, just pick one you like the look of and then move on with your life.*

And that’s without taking into account the fact there may be 1,000 separate items in the store, many of which change prices every few days.

I do not get paid commission, so it actually makes no difference to my wallet if you buy stuff off me or not. That doesn’t mean I don’t want you to buy the right thing and be happy with your purchase, but it does mean I’m not going to spend all day haggling with you. There’s a price on the item for a reason, and we’re not in a Moroccan bazaar so that price is not a high starting point for bargaining or a helpful suggestion.
I will gladly price match any competitor’s advertised price, but not “The guys at Really Big Electronics reckon they can do it for $75 less than you”- especially not when I call my mate who works at Really Big Electronics (we all talk to each other and know who is selling what and for how much) and he says you’re just trying it on.

We’re not even going to get into the fact that I’m supposed to be managing the store, not selling USB memory sticks to people that think you can get free internet by just plugging your computer into the phone line and opening Internet Explorer, either…

*This does not apply to printers being used for business or professional use, just for the average home user

86

[QUOTE=Jayn_Newell]
Apparently you missed the bit about where not all commissions are based on the price of the product. In that case, it IS in the salesman’s best interest to help you find what you want, because the important thing is the sale, not the price you pay.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t miss it, but I haven’t addressed it because I’ve been thinking about it, since Hockey Monkey mentioned it last night.

You are correct that I’ve been speaking of commissions that are based on the number of units sold and the price obtained for those units. Different types of products carry different commissions.

If a salesperson is paid simply on the basis of units sold with no differentiation between types of products, then I don’t think I could object to that. They are simply being paid more if they efficiently and quickly assess the customer’s needs, find the correct product, and complete the transaction. They are a well-designed human catalog. Such a person can honestly say that they there to help a customer find the best product for them, among those products sold by that vendor.

However, if the amount paid to the salesman per unit changes (even if the salesperson cannot change the prices of the products themselves), then it becomes clear that the salesman is not just there to be helpful to the customer. It is in their own best interest (and in the best interest of their employer) to maximize the amount of money they extract from the customer (either on a single transaction or over time). This becomes even more clear when the salesman can alter the price to try to extract more money. There is nothing wrong with trying to make as much money as possible from your customers. When you lie to them about what you are doing, then there is something wrong.

[QUOTE=Jayn_Newell]
There are assholes in every line of work, from the salesperson who is trying to screw the customers to the computer store looking to undercut the competition by selling pirated software.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but this isn’t about being assholes, it is about being honest.

The reason I’ve suggested “Personal Finance for Dummies” is that it clearly explains how the NATURE of commission based sales does not permit the salesman to act in their own best interest AND in the best interest of the customer. If your income is based on selling particular products more often then others then you cannot objectively recommend products that will be of greatest benefit to your customers. And you DON’T have to apologize for that.

But please don’t state that you are:
“Looking to get the customer the best deal.”
“Busting your ass for your clients day in and day out.”

No you are not. You are looking to maximize your income from the client. You are not working for the customer, you are working for yourself and your employer. If the customer’s best interests happen to coincide with yours, then that is a happy coincidence. When you misrepresent your motives in order to extract money from someone, you are committing fraud. Dictionary definition of Fraud: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value.

87

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
I mean, reading a book! That’s a accomplishment! Do you think you’ll ever read another one?
[/QUOTE]

The one I’ve written will be published by a major university press in the next few months. I’ll probably read it again to see if there are major errata.

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
denigrate me or my profession
[/QUOTE]

Denigrate your “profession”. That’s rich. Your profession is the oldest profession.
Like any good whore you get paid more based on how many customers you fuck.
Except that johns know in advance what they are going to get and enjoy the experience.

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
#1 because I enjoy helping other people, but #2, as I’ve said over and over again, because from a purely mercenary standpoint, THAT’S THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO MAKE THE MOST MONEY, and that’s true to a some degree in all types of sales, even car and real estate sales.
[/QUOTE]

#2 is your motivation. Good for you.
#1 is pure bullshit. Why not admit it and be able to look yourself in the mirror?

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
just because you don’t have any honor doesn’t mean that nobody does.
[/QUOTE]

Gosh, a salesman doesn’t think I’m honorable. I’ll be sobbing myself to sleep tonight.

88

[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
I’ve never been a car salesmen, but I worked with them for six months in the recent past. Some of them are idiots and will treat all of their customers like chumps and some of them are respectable. The respectable ones manage to be able to stay in the system, make a lot of repeat business, and don’t generally try to screw people over for shits and giggles. It’s a LOT different from what I’ve seen with other sales positions. Just because you were around a bunch of sleazebags at your particular car sales job doesn’t mean that ALL salesmen are “out to get you.”
[/QUOTE]

Read the thread again…you know…this thread pitting salespeople. Including your own post. Notice from all the current and former salespeople, and from those who have worked with salespeople, and from some customers the repeated refrain, “Yeah, there sure are some salespeople who are assholes/con men/rip-off artists/whatever…but not all of them are.”

Do you recall conversations regarding librarians that nearly always start, “You know its true that some of the librarians are assholes/con men/rip-off artists/whatever…but not all of them are.”

How about other types of employees? Not really, right, or not many anyway…I suppose politicians might be in there. Might that not suggest that there is something in the nature of the business that attracts/retains assholes/con men/rip off artists? I submit that that thing is commission based sales.

[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Mind you, I don’t do sales. What I “sell” is information, and, really, because it’s free to the customer, I get to decide exactly how helpful I’m going to be based on how much of a dick and how helpful they are to me. If I’m trying to narrow down your search on information to something that’s going to actually provide more than the most basic piece on the topic, you better cooperate and listen to me and not be a smartass. If you do, you’ll get attentive help for as long as I can get away with it and a lot of detailed information for your needs; if you’re willing, I’ll throw in some side banter while I’m doing searches to make the time go a little faster. If you’re not listening to me, treating me like I barely got a GED and should be flipping burgers, or being a pain in my ass in general, you’re going to get one, maybe two sources that may or may not be exactly what you need, and I’m going to point out where you can find them while you look at me dumbfounded.
[/QUOTE]

Wow. This is fascinating…and how does it relate to the thread?

[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Do me a favor and don’t shop anywhere in person. Buy all your shit off of Amazon and stay out of the libraries everywhere. You are not worth anyone’s time to deal with because you’re a moron who thinks they know everything. Your rants don’t lead to any cohesive solution that would appease you and still keep businesses running and thus are worthless.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, sorry were you expecting a cohesive solution to the worlds problem in the Pit?
Perhaps you’re looking in the wrong place.

But since you want to judge the merit of posts…what exactly has your contribution to the thread been?..“Sometimes salespeople are helpful…and I’m a librarian! SQUEEE!!!”

89

I’m all for shopping around for the best deal, and I do know that a lot of salespeople can be a bunch of dishonest whores.

Having said THAT though, ISTM that there are some here who aren’t simply trying to get a great deal–they’re looking around to find the one most willing to take a dry ass-fucking.

90

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
The reason I’ve suggested “Personal Finance for Dummies” is that it clearly explains how the NATURE of commission based sales does not permit the salesman to act in their own best interest AND in the best interest of the customer. If your income is based on selling particular products more often then others then you cannot objectively recommend products that will be of greatest benefit to your customers.
[/QUOTE]
This is overly simplistic. It assumes “best” is simply either making the highest number of dollars on an individual transaction, or paying the lowest number of dollars on the transaction. The reality is that for many business relationships, it is worth paying a bit more, and making a bit less in order to cultivate a good working relationship.

BTW, don’t try and tell me that professional corporate salesmen don’t try and get their customers good deals. 10 years of hearing salesmen ask me for lower and lower prices to close the deal trump anything you’re going to find in a Dummies book. They want their customers to get great deals, because they’ll come back the next time they need something and put more money in the salesman’s pocket.

91

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
The one I’ve written will be published by a major university press in the next few months. I’ll probably read it again to see if there are major errata.
[/quote]

Beeline books is not a “major university press”, sorry to disappoint you.

Again, you don’t know a damn thing about the nature of sales, you’re simply extrapolating your own lack or integrity to the world at large, and I’m telling you that you’re wrong. You are a bitter little man who assumes that the world is populated with bitter little men.

I see. So now you’re telling me that you know what my motivation is, and it’s money. I’m sure that will be interesting news to the dozens of people on these boards whom I have helped free of charge, just because they needed an expert, to the clients that I have said to “In your situation, I think you would be better off with product X” that we don’t sell, thus referring them to the competition or to those clients to whom I’ve said “Hey, you know, if we do this that and the other thing, we can cut your cost by $XX”, which I have done before even after they have agreed to the higher cost because it was a better thing for them to do. Wanna know what else? I just keep making a 6 figure income each year, happy as a clam with my life, my job and my family, and secure in my own personal integrity.

Actually, you shouldn’t be sobbing yourself to sleep because of what I think, you should be sobbing yourself to sleep because of what you are.

92

InLucemEdita, You miss the point. Rarely does a customer know the exact make, model, color, finish, trim, pillow size, sleeper option, etc etc that they want when they walk in.

If Mrs. Jones comes in and tells me she wants a reclining sofa, in leather for around 800.00 I can show her the models that meet her needs. I don’t show her the 2400.00 model because that would show that I’m not listening to her. If everything works out great.

This one really happened to me. Turns out that 5’5 120 lb Mrs. Jones is married to 6’4 320 lb Mr. Jones. Guess what? He didn’t find any of the smaller, cheaper sofas comfortable. Not a big surprise considering his size. I still did not show him to the larger more expensive models, because they told me their parameters. Eventually HE decided that he’d need to pony up a little more to get something large enough for him, since his other requirements, (the leather choice, and reclining option) were not negotiable. It wasn’t my fault, nor a sleezy tactic on my part to SELL HIM WHAT HE FUCKING ASKED FOR, AND NEEDED.

I could have sold Mrs. Jones the little sofa, and had it returned, lost my commission, and their future business because I didn’t ask questions. I would have lost money because I didn’t have their interest in mind. My commission was better, and they were impressed with the service you so disdain, and eventually furnished their second home in south Orlando with ME, because I took the time to care for my client. THAT sale was over 22k.

93

[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
InLucemEdita, You miss the point.
[/QUOTE]

Apparently I do, because truly, I don’t know what the hell you are going on about.
You’re are focused on goddamn sofas and I’m trying to rant about commissioned sales.

94

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Beeline books is not a “major university press”, sorry to disappoint you.
[/QUOTE]

Envy isn’t pretty, Dave.

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Again, you don’t know a damn thing about the nature of sales, you’re simply extrapolating your own lack or integrity to the world at large, and I’m telling you that you’re wrong. You are a bitter little man who assumes that the world is populated with bitter little men.
[/QUOTE]

If that makes you feel better about yourself, keep saying it over and over. It won’t work in the long run, but it will soothe you temporarily.

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Wanna know what else? I just keep making a 6 figure income each year, happy as a clam with my life, my job and my family, and secure in my own personal integrity.
[/QUOTE]

Wow. 6 figures huh. I’m really impressed. And you’re a saint to top that off.
Why don’t you write a book about how great you are?

95

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
This is overly simplistic. It assumes “best” is simply either making the highest number of dollars on an individual transaction, or paying the lowest number of dollars on the transaction. The reality is that for many business relationships, it is worth paying a bit more, and making a bit less in order to cultivate a good working relationship.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree with you entirely, but a good working relationship needn’t, shouldn’t, and can’t (if you ask me) be based on a false premise. The premise that commissioned salespeople regularly put forth is that they “are working for the client.” A good example of this is the notion of the “buyers realtor” v. “seller’s realtor”. Neither realtor is working for either the seller or the buyer. Each realtor is working for themselves and their respective agencies. I don’t believe either realtor can truly act in the best interest of the parties to the sale, when their own best interest is served by acting contrary to the best interests of the clients. See the recent thread pitting realtors for the myriad ways in which this can be done.

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
BTW, don’t try and tell me that professional corporate salesmen don’t try and get their customers good deals. 10 years of hearing salesmen ask me for lower and lower prices to close the deal trump anything you’re going to find in a Dummies book. They want their customers to get great deals, because they’ll come back the next time they need something and put more money in the salesman’s pocket.
[/QUOTE]

I believe they want their customers to get great deals because that will allow them to close the sale and make money. If they could close the deal (or a series of deals over time) at a higher price, they’d be happy to do so, even though that isn’t in the best interest (by any measure) of the client.

Is the pure profit motive so distasteful to people that they have to hide behind false premises to keep doing their jobs?

It isn’t inherently bad to be a salesman.
It is bad to be a salesman who lies about his or her motives to make a sale.

96

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
I don’t disagree with you entirely, but a good working relationship needn’t, shouldn’t, and can’t (if you ask me) be based on a false premise. The premise that commissioned salespeople regularly put forth is that they “are working for the client.”
[/quote]
This is not a false premise. When you have a good working relationship with a salesman, they are working for you in the same manner any service person is working for you. Do you think that auto mechanic, or barber or landscaper who is hired directly by you doesn’t have the same profit motive as the salesman? From your definition, nobody is working for anybody but themselves.

All service providers perform their service for a profit. They all have an interest in increasing the price of their services, or selling additional services, it doesn’t make them all whores.

Sometimes, people have a bit of personal integrity and genuinely want their customers to walk away happy with their purchases, even if it costs them a bit more money or time to make them happy.

97

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
This is not a false premise. When you have a good working relationship with a salesman, they are working for you in the same manner any service person is working for you. Do you think that auto mechanic, or barber or landscaper who is hired directly by you doesn’t have the same profit motive as the salesman? From your definition, nobody is working for anybody but themselves.All service providers perform their service for a profit. They all have an interest in increasing the price of their services, or selling additional services, it doesn’t make them all whores.

Sometimes, people have a bit of personal integrity and genuinely want their customers to walk away happy with their purchases, even if it costs them a bit more money or time to make them happy.
[/QUOTE]

But the mechanic has a stated rate. The rate doesn’t (or shouldn’t) change based on how much they think they can bamboozle the client into paying. Everyone is entitled to be paid for the work they do. But a relationship based on a fee and a relationship based on a commission that is in turn based on the price paid by the client are NOT the same relationship. One involves withholding information about the true price of the good or service. If that information is withheld by the salesman while at the same time trying to convince the client that they are acting in their best interest, then this is deception with the intent to defraud. IMO.

That is not the same as stating your fee for a service and collecting that fee for a job well done.

98

[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
But the mechanic has a stated rate. The rate doesn’t (or shouldn’t) change based on how much they think they can bamboozle the client into paying.
[/quote]
BWWAHHHAHAHAHA! You had me going there for a minute!

You lost me here, which one involves withholding information? Most salesmen will quote you an actual price, which is just as much the “true” price as the mechanic’s estimate.

Are you really under the delusion that a mechanic has one, and only one, price for his services? Speaking as the son of a mechanic (auto body repair, specifically), I know for a fact that he had significant leeway in his estimates, and would often give friends/family members severely reduced prices. If he wanted to, he could reduce his price any time he wanted, if he thought that would get a customer to choose his shop instead of a competitor.

At best, the “fee” guy pretends that he’s only got one price, while the “commission” guy admits that there’s some flexibility.

99

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
BWWAHHHAHAHAHA! You had me going there for a minute!
[/QUOTE]

Right, so it’s O.K. for the mechanic to charge more when either a) you are a woman, b) you are a visiting foreigner and don’t understand the currency, c) you are in a desperate situation?

Of course not. These are the hallmarks of DISHONEST mechanics. Just because people can screw you on fees doesn’t mean it is right to screw people on commissions.

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
You lost me here, which one involves withholding information? Most salesmen will quote you an actual price, which is just as much the “true” price as the mechanic’s estimate. Are you really under the delusion that a mechanic has one, and only one, price for his services? Speaking as the son of a mechanic (auto body repair, specifically), I know for a fact that he had significant leeway in his estimates, and would often give friends/family members severely reduced prices. If he wanted to, he could reduce his price any time he wanted, if he thought that would get a customer to choose his shop instead of a competitor.
[/QUOTE]

I guess I’m a Pollyanna, but yeah, I think if I bring a car in to have a radiator replaced I should get the same price quote as someone else who brings in the identical car with the identical problem. I think the fact that this doesn’t always happen is what gives some mechanics a bad name…so it’s not a particularly good example to use to redeem the reputation of commissioned salespeople.

If a businessperson of any type wants to give a gift of his products or services to friends and family I think that is an entirely different relationship than the customer salesperson relationship we are discussing. Is your Mom the same to you as an average customer?

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
At best, the “fee” guy pretends that he’s only got one price, while the “commission” guy admits that there’s some flexibility.
[/QUOTE]

Of course, fees are subject to change. Your local restaurant can change its menu prices whenever it likes. It can even decide to charge different people different prices. But if you’re the one getting the higher prices…how would you feel about your “relationship” with the restaurant owner when you found out you’d been charged more? What if all along the restaurant owner had been telling you that he’d been doing everything he could to get you the lowest price…because he’s really working for you and has your best interests in mind…when he’d actually been selling the food to others for less? Wouldn’t that be a DECEPTION on his part?

How can you see it as anything but?

Any business person can choose to use deception as part of their sales strategy, or not.

100

As a certified sociopath, allow me to inform you.

Salesmen are a different species.

The good sociopaths take advantage of their distance from humans.