[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
I’m not sure about “ever”, but not much, certainly. I think my statements are pretty clear that I’m talking about retail, cars, real estate, and consumer products…as stated by the OP.
[/QUOTE]
Part of my problem with the OP was the fact that s/he seemed to be tlaing about all salespeople, not just those in retail environments. Even if it is, I still think it is waaaay too broad a brush, but it would make more sense.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Hmmm…an up-to-date brochure for hundreds of different products, with hundreds of options…produced in a quantity that I could give it away to any customer who wants one…and perhaps even mail them to people as a means of advertising my goods…then include the cost of this magical brochure in the prices of the products…
Impossible you say…but I’m determined to invent such a thing…and I will call my creation…
A CATALOG!!!
[/QUOTE]
Which is worth diddly-dick when your fabric supplier goes belly-up and stops production for your plant as they move to china. Everything in your catalog is now incorrect since 20-40 % of your covers are now invalid. Whoops guess we better re-print. Then your company drops a line of product in your region due to flagging sales. Whoops better re-print. Etc etc.
You are vastly overestimating the mental power of the average consumer to put together a correct order from the great variety of options available. Since you business model didn’t include trained product knowledge representatives, you now get to deal with the 7/ hour drool monkey behind the screen who doesn’t know why you can’t order your product. The book I worked with was over 400 pages, and had 6 separate lines, all with special options for each individual piece. Not all pieces take all fabrics, not all listed fabrics are available at all times etc, etc, etc. You might be able to wade through it, but joe shmoe won’t.
I still don’t understand why declining sales’ staff help cannot be done in a civilized manner. I don’t like being bugged either, but I find a firm polite refusal leaves my options open better than treating someone like dirt for simply doing their job.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Hmmm…an up-to-date brochure for hundreds of different products, with hundreds of options…produced in a quantity that I could give it away to any customer who wants one…and perhaps even mail them to people as a means of advertising my goods…then include the cost of this magical brochure in the prices of the products…
Impossible you say…but I’m determined to invent such a thing…and I will call my creation…
A CATALOG!!!
[/QUOTE]
Most catalogs I’ve seen do at least one of the following to justify the printing costs:[ul]
[li]release them only quarterly, yearly, or every other month at the very most[/li][li]make very few changes to the catalog, or have a standard cycle of catalog prices so they don’t have to pay exorbitant printing costs[/li][li]pass the cost of printing on to the customer via prices[/li][li]change their prices very rarely (ex. IKEA- same prices all year unless there’s a special that’s not advertised)[/li][li]specialize and only send out catalogs to businesses and organizations that are likely to buy items in bulk (Do you get catalogs from Demco or Gaylord at home? They’re specialty companies that focus on museums and libraries and thus avoid sending catalogs to just anyone.)[/li][li]require minimums to ensure that only those buying in bulk would be interested in the products[/li][/ul]
Shopping via an online catalog can be sketchy at best as well due to increased exposure. Things run out, prices get dropped because there’s very few items left, and there’s a lag time between when things run out and when the web maintainer(s) can update it.
If you REALLY want a catalog or printed guide, or even a computer kiosk that’ll guide you through the process so you don’t have to be tainted by dealing with other people when shopping, you’re going to have to pay more for the cost of maintaining that extra system. There are still going to be people who are there to process orders and take money and removing salespeople altogether rarely means a savings to the company via workforce stats. Catalogs are not a well-justified means of making money for most companies anyway; there are too many “my mommy still wipes my ass for me” people who need the handholding and guidance throughout the transaction to let the salesperson position fall by the wayside in retail. It’s still there in a limited capacity in just about every store, as someone has to stay and make sure that your needs are being served in every zone of the average store.
[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey]
You are making an incorrect assumption that **Weirddave ** would actually be lowering his profit by recommending something that would better suit his customer’s needs. I doubt this was the case at all.
[/QUOTE]
In this case, no, I get paid the same (if you can call it pay) by MHIP no matter what product the client choses, but I’ve done just that (suggest a product that lowers my commission) many times because it’s the right thing for the client. Anyone who does otherwise is stupid. I make more money off of residuals, renewals, referrals and redistribution that some asshole who fucks the client for a big up front advance check. Bottom line: What’s best for me is finding out what my client’s needs are and then meeting them, whatever they are, not selling them some high commission geegaw that does nothing for them.
Generally when I go to buy something, I’ve already “done the homework”. I know what I want and what it’s worth. I don’t mind at all if some salesman has a better deal - better stuff at the same (or close) price, or the “same thing” at a lower price. However if I say “I want a blue whatsis with a red whosiwhats” then that’s what I want. Don’t try to sell me a pumpkin if I want blueberries. Don’t play “bait and switch”. Don’t tell me what I want, I already know what I want. You will lose the sale. Also, don’t make me have to track and set traps or use tranq darts to make a purchase. There IS a middle ground. Lastly, if you are a door to door salesman (magazines are the worst at this) you have to understand that if I say “no thank you” I mean it. Jamming your foot in my door (that really happened) is NOT going to make me buy anything I don’t want. If I am at your stereo store, don’t bullshit me with phony claims - I are an engineer and will see right through you. If you say “I’m not sure” or “I can find out” you still have a chance. You bullshit me, you lost the sale.
What I want and expect is professionalism and basic courtesy.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
Hmmm…an up-to-date brochure for hundreds of different products, with hundreds of options…produced in a quantity that I could give it away to any customer who wants one…and perhaps even mail them to people as a means of advertising my goods…then include the cost of this magical brochure in the prices of the products…
Impossible you say…but I’m determined to invent such a thing…and I will call my creation…
A CATALOG!!!
[/QUOTE]
Read for detail
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
The problem with catsix’s theory is that it is based upon the mistaken notion that the customer is always right
[/QUOTE]
[Shannon Hamilton] Let me tell you a secret: The customer. Is always. AN ASSHOLE!
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
Which is worth diddly-dick when your fabric supplier goes belly-up and stops production for your plant as they move to china. Everything in your catalog is now incorrect since 20-40 % of your covers are now invalid. Whoops guess we better re-print. Then your company drops a line of product in your region due to flagging sales. Whoops better re-print. Etc etc.
[/QUOTE]
And this justifies a commissioned salesperson how? If the item is out of stock, the desk/phone jockey can tell me so. If I want to choose another item/option, I’ll do so. If not, I won’t. If so many things are fucked up at your company that I’ll need a commissioned salesperson to explain the nuances to me, I’ll go elsewhere where it is less of a hassle, thanks. I think you are vastly overestimating the extent to which customers give a shit about your business problems.
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
You are vastly overestimating the mental power of the average consumer to put together a correct order from the great variety of options available.
[/QUOTE]
Gee, added cost, hidden information, and a big dose of condescention. Who wouldn’t want to deal with a commissioned salesperson for EVERY transaction?! Pardon me I need to log off for a few hours while I try to figure out what to eat for dinner. There are just so many options and combinations I don’t know how I’ll ever be able to make a decision on my own!
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
Since you business model didn’t include trained product knowledge representatives, you now get to deal with the 7/ hour drool monkey behind the screen who doesn’t know why you can’t order your product. The book I worked with was over 400 pages, and had 6 separate lines, all with special options for each individual piece. Not all pieces take all fabrics, not all listed fabrics are available at all times etc, etc, etc. You might be able to wade through it, but joe shmoe won’t.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, please. Drool monkey for me. If I need help with assembling the nuclear warhead that is a sofa, I’ll hire someone to help me.
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
I still don’t understand why declining sales’ staff help cannot be done in a civilized manner. I don’t like being bugged either, but I find a firm polite refusal leaves my options open better than treating someone like dirt for simply doing their job.
[/QUOTE]
No problem politely declining sales’ staff help. If only they would politely decline from charging me a commission on the sale for which they did no work we would be in a very happy place.
[QUOTE=Rick]
Read for detail
[/QUOTE]
Please follow your own advice.
I never suggested I needed weekly updated information.
Or monthly for that matter.
This is a straw man argument.
If he DEMANDS weekly updates he MUST need a commissioned salesman.
Didn’t demand it. Don’t even want it. Don’t need him.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Most catalogs I’ve seen do at least one of the following to justify the printing costs:[ul]
[li]release them only quarterly, yearly, or every other month at the very most[/li][li]make very few changes to the catalog, or have a standard cycle of catalog prices so they don’t have to pay exorbitant printing costs[/li][li]pass the cost of printing on to the customer via prices[/li][li]change their prices very rarely (ex. IKEA- same prices all year unless there’s a special that’s not advertised)[/li][li]specialize and only send out catalogs to businesses and organizations that are likely to buy items in bulk (Do you get catalogs from Demco or Gaylord at home? They’re specialty companies that focus on museums and libraries and thus avoid sending catalogs to just anyone.)[/li][li]require minimums to ensure that only those buying in bulk would be interested in the products[/li][/ul]
[/QUOTE]
And this justifies the need for a commissioned salesperson how?
There are expenses for every product that need to go into the price of the product. This includes advertising and printing materials.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Shopping via an online catalog can be sketchy at best as well due to increased exposure. Things run out, prices get dropped because there’s very few items left, and there’s a lag time between when things run out and when the web maintainer(s) can update it.
[/QUOTE]
According to Acid Lamp the same sketchy things happen to traditional retailers. This still doesn’t justify commissioned salespeople. If you have the product I want, I’ll buy it. If you don’t I’ll pick something else or go elsewhere. Why the need for a commission?
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
If you REALLY want a catalog or printed guide, or even a computer kiosk that’ll guide you through the process so you don’t have to be tainted by dealing with other people when shopping, you’re going to have to pay more for the cost of maintaining that extra system. There are still going to be people who are there to process orders and take money and removing salespeople altogether rarely means a savings to the company via workforce stats. Catalogs are not a well-justified means of making money for most companies anyway; there are too many “my mommy still wipes my ass for me” people who need the handholding and guidance throughout the transaction to let the salesperson position fall by the wayside in retail. It’s still there in a limited capacity in just about every store, as someone has to stay and make sure that your needs are being served in every zone of the average store.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not opposed to salespeople in general. I’m opposed to commissioned salespeople. A person whose job it is to present information that I request about products, and whose pay is fixed and unrelated to the price at which they sell me a product or the quantity of product I buy, is a reasonably trustworthy source of information. They are a human catalog. If the costs of maintaining catalogs (human or paper) is included in the fixed price of the product, I have no problem with that.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
If a consumer needs help with a transaction they should pay a fee to someone who can help them with the transaction. It is highly inefficient to have every consumer pay for this “service” when it is neither wanted nor needed. I won’t pretend that commission sales will go away, but I will avoid them whenever possible, and I’ll call bullshit when the, “We’re just here to help you in a mutually satisfying relationship” crap is trotted out.
[/QUOTE]
I just don’t understand this at all. You are willing to pay a fee to someone who can help you with the transaction, yet you are not willing to work with a salesperson who is knowledgeable in the product you are buying? How do you know that person will have your interests in mind, and not the paycheck? Does he care about cultivating a relationship with you so that you will continue to use his services? Do you know that what you described is a commissioned salesperson? He would be getting paid based on whether or not you buy something. Just because he doesn’t work for the company you are buying from doesn’t make it less so.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
And this justifies the need for a commissioned salesperson how?
There are expenses for every product that need to go into the price of the product. This includes advertising and printing materials.
According to Acid Lamp the same sketchy things happen to traditional retailers. This still doesn’t justify commissioned salespeople. If you have the product I want, I’ll buy it. If you don’t I’ll pick something else or go elsewhere. Why the need for a commission?
I’m not opposed to salespeople in general. I’m opposed to commissioned salespeople. A person whose job it is to present information that I request about products, and whose pay is fixed and unrelated to the price at which they sell me a product or the quantity of product I buy, is a reasonably trustworthy source of information. They are a human catalog. If the costs of maintaining catalogs (human or paper) is included in the fixed price of the product, I have no problem with that.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, I think I see the confusion here. Commission isn’t always a percentage of the gross profit in the sale. I am a commissioned salesperson, but my pay is unrelated to the price or the profit of any particular product. I get a flat rate per unit. It’s commission because I don’t get paid by the hour. If I don’t sell something, I don’t make money. If I do sell something I make X dollars. So you would be OK with me. 
[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey]
I just don’t understand this at all. You are willing to pay a fee to someone who can help you with the transaction, yet you are not willing to work with a salesperson who is knowledgeable in the product you are buying? How do you know that person will have your interests in mind, and not the paycheck? Does he care about cultivating a relationship with you so that you will continue to use his services? Do you know that what you described is a commissioned salesperson? He would be getting paid based on whether or not you buy something. Just because he doesn’t work for the company you are buying from doesn’t make it less so.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know how you can’t understand this.
A fee based advisor does NOT make money on the sale.
They make money for providing requested assistance and ensuring that their client’s best interests are met.
They make their fee regardless of whether the sale is made or not.
In fact, the most important element is that they may well tell you NOT to make the transaction if it is not in your best interest. They are paid for giving you that VERY valuable advice.
Generally speaking a commissioned salesperson will NOT tell you if you are paying too much for a product. They will NOT tell you if you can get it cheaper elsewhere. They will NOT tell you the benefits of various products from various vendors.
They will instead try only to sell you their products, and they will try to maximize the amount of money they get from you (again, maximizing that amount may involve stringing the transactions out for as extended a period of time as they can “We want a customer for life!!”).
No matter what they tell you, their primary goal is to get your money.
They are NOT looking out for your best interests.
If you want someone to do that for you, you need to hire them for a fee, independently so it is clear that they work for YOU.
Please read “Personal Finance for Dummies” if you don’t understand the difference between a Fee-based advisor and a commissioned salesperson. I did.
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
Unfortunately, you are the exception. The vast majority of people are like catsix, who would sooner spit on a salesman than seek him out to get him the commission. Those people, if they walk out the door, they’re not coming back to buy anything.
[/QUOTE]
It depends. If it’s a one-shot deal and all you have to worry about is making your commission, then yes, you will get a lot of assholes. My dad did corporate sales for GE for like 40 years. For that kind of sales, bullshit artists don’t last. Customers look for people they can trust and do business with long term.
I think you are being deliberately obtuse.
If I have the piece you want, but not the fabric, I can still make your piece, I just don’t have that particular fabric. I am not “out of stock”, I’ve got an issue with a certain cover. Most large purchases that people research ahead of time are fairly locked in. You know what you want, and are unlikely to want to settle for a weaker product. The problem is that you can’t go get that product somewhere else. If I don’t have it, Gary’s won’t have it either. A knowledgeable salesperson can suggest similar alternatives for you and hopefully earn your business despite the setback. They might upgrade you for free because of your trouble. The drool monkey can’t do that for you and I LOSE your business because of a supplier issue. If you’ve ever run a business you’ll know that your suppliers change things all the time, sometimes several times in a single week, and you have to adjust accordingly.
You CAN get around this without commission, but you’ll need to pay your staff high wages to be so well trained and efficient with their skills. Considering that major purchases have a MUCH lower volume than everyday stuff, you want me to pay my staff to sit on their asses all day and play around while they wait for their opportunities of the day. SO now i’m paying them to do nothing, AND they have no motivation to earn your business since they get paid either way. I could require quotas, but that’s not fair unless everyone has the same number and quality of chances to make the sale. We had a bad two months last summer where we only received about 100 customers over the whole two months. We still had to staff the floor with enough people to ensure timely service for everyone in case we got busy. It sucked from a commission standpoint, but if they used the other model they would have hemorrhaged money. If you have the drool monkeys, you can’t deal with the issues and questions that arise and you lose the sale.
InLucemEdita, I really don’t think you understand that having commissioned salespeople saves a company money. No sales = money going out the door having to actually pay people who aren’t making any sales. It’s not a Best Buy or a Wal-Mart situation; the situations I’m talking about are generally low-volume, high-priced sales. The sheer number of pages of a catalog that covers all the customization options for certain items would drive the price of the item into astronomical ranges when paired with a staff of hourly wage earners. For the type of customization required, it’s not going to advantageous to have a minimum wage tag attached to the body that’s finishing sales, as there’s extensive training just to put the damned order into the system in most places.
I don’t want the same kind of service that I get at Wal-Mart to be what I deal with when buying expensive items, and Banana Republic style service is not up to the level that the average person needs when shopping for big ticket items. I do my research, have a general idea of what I’m going to want to pay and shop around, but if the person I’m dealing with when I’m buying something expensive cannot answer the questions I want answered about the product (I may have researched, but there are always questions that need to be asked), I am not likely to buy the product.
Your model is not going to work out for any manufacturer, as nobody’s going to sell you one piece for the wholesale price. You’re an idiot. 
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
InLucemEdita, I really don’t think you understand that having commissioned salespeople saves a company money.
[/QUOTE]
I most certainly do understand that. And let’s keep that right up front. The commissioned salespeople are NOT there to act in my best interest. They are there because it is in the best interest of the company, and presumably in the best interest of the commissioned salesperson. They have agreed to participate in a relationship that benefits them both at my expense. Thus, we are adversaries.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
the situations I’m talking about are generally low-volume, high-priced sales. The sheer number of pages of a catalog that covers all the customization options for certain items would drive the price of the item into astronomical ranges when paired with a staff of hourly wage earners. For the type of customization required, it’s not going to advantageous to have a minimum wage tag attached to the body that’s finishing sales, as there’s extensive training just to put the damned order into the system in most places.
[/QUOTE]
What the hell are you people selling?
Aren’t we talking about furniture and cars?
Jesus Christ is isn’t that complicated. I sold cars for Christ’s sake.
I also worked for a furniture company quite a while back.
These people are NOT highly qualified, highly trained, skilled workers.
NOT BY A LONG SHOT.
You list the options, you fill in the form, you enter it in.
If there is a conflict you change the order.
If it takes years of “extensive training” to get the hang of this then you need to explore options in the food service and housekeeping industries.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
I don’t want the same kind of service that I get at Wal-Mart to be what I deal with when buying expensive items, and Banana Republic style service is not up to the level that the average person needs when shopping for big ticket items. I do my research, have a general idea of what I’m going to want to pay and shop around, but if the person I’m dealing with when I’m buying something expensive cannot answer the questions I want answered about the product (I may have researched, but there are always questions that need to be asked), I am not likely to buy the product.
[/QUOTE]
Their ability to answer your questions is not dependent on their pay being commission based.
If YOU want special service YOU should pay for it.
If I don’t want special service I shouldn’t have to pay for yours.
In my experience the average person a) doesn’t want the service that a commissioned salesperson has to offer and b) can’t trust the service they receive.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Your model is not going to work out for any manufacturer,
[/QUOTE]
I haven’t presented a model. I’ve stated that I don’t like dealing with commissioned salespeople. I’m ranting about them in fact, because this is the pit, and salespeople have been pitted.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
as nobody’s going to sell you one piece for the wholesale price.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm…never said anything about wholesale price.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
You’re an idiot. 
[/QUOTE]
That’s so cute.
[QUOTE=InLucemEdita]
That’s so cute.
[/QUOTE]
Accurate though. You read a book that is written down to the level of idiots, and now you think you know everything. You’re an idiot. Please, by all means, buy everything you want online. It’s available there, you’ll feel better for having “outsmarted” the system, and I’ll feel better for not having to deal with you. I can save my talents for people who deserve them.
Sweet fucking Og. I am not here to defend salespeople, but some of these posts freak me out.
In my post earlier, when I bought furniture, I spent 3 grand. Hell, I bet I could have researched for 400 hours, took 8 months, went to 20 places, plus 200 websites and saved a few hundred bucks. Well, by golly, I fucked myself.
Personally, I don’t give a shit. I got what I wanted and if I didn’t get the absolute rock-bottom best deal, screw it. It’s not worth my fucking time to spend endless hours and mind-fucking myself on “Well shit, I could save X amount at blah blah, or go here, and haggle there or there, or wherethefuckever…”
If I didn’t save a couple hundred bucks on a 3000 dollar deal by bitching and haggling, I don’t really care. If a couple hundred bucks meant that much, I shouldn’t be spending a few grand in the first place.
It’s not worth my peace of mind.
And that was for a 12 foot diameter circular revolving bed with a three inch lime-green shag carpet base, chrome stripper pole in the center, and a recessed 8 track deck and turntable.
Plus, the salesman threw in a Slip 'N Slide, Twister and “The Carpenters Greatest Hits” for “free”.