If you have 40 minutes to spare, why can’t you find a 40-minute task instead of trying to cram a 60-minute task into 40 minutes?
I hate wasting time waiting too. Has it ever occurred to you that there is someone on the other end of your plans who is wasting their time waiting on you? Why is that okay with you, but it’s not okay for you to waste time waiting on them? How can I not call that inconsiderate?
Sorry, turns out that was more than two questions.
When behavior produces undesirable consequence, it’s not uncommon for humans to take note of this and to modify that behavior so a better result is produced. It’s easy to see how someone might not be good at estimating time required; it’s harder to see how this could persist for years despite it consistently producing problems.
The additional factor must be that she (along with other CLs) simply isn’t much troubled by the bad consequences of her poor planning.
I think you’re on target here. Many people are troubled by making someone close to them stand in the broiling sun unnecessarily. Some are not.
You’re totally right. I’m not defending the behavior. I was just trying to define “empty” time to a previous poster.
That seems to be more of a miscalculation of how long something should take. It’s not that I intentionally select a task that won’t fit in the allotted time.
2 a) Absolutely which is why I said in an earlier post that it’s clearly a double standard. On some level I think I must believe that my time is more important than someone elses. b) It’s not OK, see 2a. c) It is inconsiderate (or downright rude) if I’m late for an appointment or specific time event. I don’t place the same value on being an hour late to a social event where my presence isn’t critical.
In our family we may be celebrating a birthday or family game night where we all get together. Conversation may last up to two hours before the official festivities begin. I am not compelled to be there “at 6” if all I’m missing is the “shoot the shit” time.
In the same vein, I totally don’t understand those of you who get angry because I’m not “on time”. Don’t hold dinner for me. Don’t change your plans. I’ll be along shortly and will make do.
Some of the rationales in this thread can be summarized as:
it’s not deliberate or a control issue;
there’s a deficiency in estimating time/getting distracted by or absorbed in something else
poor organization.
However, I think for some people (not singling out anyone in this thread, I’m speaking anecdotally about the CLers in my own life) these explanations don’t hold water because of the following reason: I know at least a couple CLers that have a spouse / SO / parent around prompting them that it’s time to leave or get ready or whatever – yet they will still find a way to stall / be late (to the unending frustration of the spouse). That says to me “control”; if someone is around telling you, and you are aware that you are a CLer, that someone functions as your “alarm” and there’s no reason not to drop what you’re doing and go.
Yeah, I knew a guy like that once. Cousin in law. Loved him I did. Everybody did. Great cook, lot’s of fun and very intelligent. Very fun to be around. But sometimes took to many chances for my likeing. And could not hold a job.
We would pick him up at his house for get togethers, say with family or friends at a restaurant. People that he all new and loved. But it was always ‘another smoke’ and I gotta put my socks on. That would always take a half hour at least.
There are certainly different people in these early/late threads. And the line is pretty clear. And it’s pretty clear that we don’t understand each other even if we are married to one of a different inclination.
Of the different socialogical problems and differences we may all have, this is one that I doubt I will ever understand.
Yes Shirley, this has been a very surprisingly contentious issue. I don’t really understand what the argument is though. At one point the CL folks accused the ‘on timers’ of forcing our lifestyle on them. Which was weird because the CL folks had agreed to be somewhere at such and such time, failed, and it was the ‘on time’ (OT) folks problem. Their problem to the point of their fault. Very strange.
My Wife left this morning at 4am to volunteer at a race in Denver. If she was riding, I would have gone with her. This is just normal weekend stuff for us. This gave her 2 hours driving time, and 1 hour to help set up before the race actually started. A little bit of a buffer to set up the volunteers.
I don’t have that many things that I have to be absolutely on time for. But I am anyway. It really simplifies things when you are on time and don’t waste other peoples time. I’ve never had any problem with that, so I have a hard time understanding why people are late.
An all day back yard BBQ, for 30 friends, show up any time. Don’t come at all. We understand.
Hah…. My Wife just called and the race is started (it’s a half IronMan). A bunch of volunteers came late so they are trying to set things up in a rush. The late comers where high school kids.
The high school kids signed up for this. They knew the details. I suspect some just slept in, and made the whole group late. Now there may not be as many aid stations on this race as there should be. There is really a snowball effect to being late. One late person can screw up the whole show.
You know, my husband has said for years that attitudes toward time are the single most important area of compatibility for determining how happy a couple’s day to day life is. I don’t know that I’d go that far, but I think it probably deserves a place in the top three because it’s one of the few issues that will come up every single day of your life together. You can trade up or down the punctuality ladder a rung or two–someone who likes to be 10 minutes early can be happy with someone who is okay with being on time or 5 minutes late and vice versa–but further apart than that and it starts getting dicey. Our friends who don’t even start ironing clothes until they’re supposed to be walking out the door are wonderful people and I love them, but the plain fact of the matter is that if I had to live with either of them, I’d bludgeon them to death.
Well said. Espesially the “I’d bludgeon them to death”.
I’m glad I have my Wife.
Yeah, If you can’t tell, my Wife and I travel very well together. After 12 years together and sometimes traveling with dogs I think that we were put in a rush perhaps once.
For local travel, driving, bags get packed and get set by the door. I already have the car full of gas of course. Hotel reservations have usually been made. GPS destinations entered.
Dog food and accommodations already made. Whether they come with us or get boarded. We have plenty of time to plan for this so we do.
For a 2 hour drive time for most of our local or even long distance trips, we hit the door within 5 minutes of what we had planned on.
We are going to Costa Rica in the spring. We will discuss the travel plans well before hand. And insure that we both have what we need. From our house the airport is 2 hours away. And because of 9-11 and international travel, I suspect that we will need to be there 2 hours before the flight. No prob. Neither my wife or I will be waiting for one another.
If you have to leave at 3am you just do. Again, like someone else said its just simple math. My wife and I throw in the “OH SHIT” contingency so that we make sure that we have time to address any problems. If no problems arise, then its bonus time to read or explore.
Travel is supposed to be fun, not a mad dash out the door.
I am the timely one, it is my parents who are the CLs. That’s tough sometimes, since I did have to live with them without any bludgeoning. They were late to my: high school, college, and law school graduations. Every play or competition I was ever in. They were not late to my wedding because I specifically arranged it so that would be impossible (we had formal photography before the wedding, so they would have to be over an hour late before they were late at all. And if they didn’t make it into any pics due to their own lateness, well, that sucks to be them I guess). We were constantly late for planes when I was a child and running through the airport like madmen (pre-9/11 security, obviously). It was only later I learned you could arrive at the airport more than 5 minutes before your flight.
Their lateness is a combination of narcissism and an eternal sunny optimism about how long things take. Just one example: My mom forgets that rush hour exists, and that drives take longer during it. One time she tells me my dad just left the house and is going to pick her up “in 20 minutes.” I tell her that is quite unlikely; yes, it’s a 20 minute drive on a saturday afternoon, but not thursday at 6pm. This is amazing and startling news to her.
Not just a little late, she averages an hour, though two is not unknown. (Note, she has gotten better, but not all that much)
For her, I think it is narcissism. Whenever she is late she tries to brush it off with a ‘Sorry about that’ and acts as though it is no big deal. However, if anyone else is late or inconveniences her in anyway it is the end of the fucking world.
In fact, it has gotten so annoying that I won’t do things with her anymore. She has wasted so much of my time that I just won’t do it. On those occasions when we have to do something (family gatherings, etc) I won’t wait. When she is late, as she invariably is, we all just go do whatever the hell it is we were planning on without her. Of course, this pisses her off but at this point everyone is so pissed off about her lateness that no one gives a shit.
She also has a bad habit of planning 19 different things at once and does not seem to understand that this pisses people off. For example, at one point she was building a house and asked me to help all the time. I did a couple times until I realized that, instead of building the house I would end up driving around with her doing all kinds of errands all day. If she wants help doing a project, fine, I’ll help. I won’t waste all my time waiting while she does some fucking errands.
Another recent example, my sis and I had a meeting with my Dad. We do these weekly when the parents are in town. The last time we did one of these she was a) 45 minutes late eating into my Saturday which is normal and b) showed up talking on the phone. She kept talking on the phone. Breaking up with her boyfriend.
Yep, instead of calling off saying that she had a problem and couldn’t make it, she showed up and had a running conversation with her boyfriend on her cell phone about their relationship while we were supposed to be working on various things. I got pissed and she couldn’t figure out *why *I was pissed.
I’m a stretch-it-out-to-the-last-minute, and run in, out of breath, on time, or a minute after. I can be late by a few minutes in social situations, but because Im expected to be there, on time. on work days if Im late its by a minute or three, tops. But there are legal and safety issuess about staff arrivals. But recently Im starting to get annoyed with others who are late, every day and I figure if I dont clean up my act, I have no right to complain. So I drew a line in the sand… no matter what is going on I leave with enough time to get there early.
I have a co worker who is always 10-15 mins late. Except on weekends. Weekends I phone her around quarter past start time so she gets to work an hour late. Next weekend I work day shift with her Im phoning her half an hour before work starts. She will still be late, but then only as late as she is on week days. People think I’m the bitch. The supervisor came at 4o mins past start time the last Saturday morning and said “Is everyone here?” I said “Everyone except __________ I called her at 15 after and she said she was on her way. She lives 5 minutes from here.” I got flack from co -workers who asked why I reported her as late. Simple, if she doesn’t arrive, then I lied to the boss. No thanks. The late co worker once called in sick at 20 after the shift started, so there is that history to consider.
Anyway after dealing with_________ for a while, I started being early by 10 minutes as courtesy to everyone, especially the shift that really wants to go home. It’s spilling out into my personal life too, which can only be a good thing.
On the other hand, another co worker is early by 45 to 50 minutes every morning. I wish she would get an extra half hour of sleep and come in less cranky.
Honestly, and with all due respect to those claiming a legitimate mental disorder, I do believe the vast majority of CL’ers are simply inconsiderate and could do better if they really wanted to (as demonstrated by the fact they do do better when they have to). But you’re right: At the end of the day we can only control our own actions and it really doesn’t matter why a chronically late person is chronically late.
After years of being repeatedly aggravated by two CL friends, I finally just told both of them, “Look, my time is as valuable as yours. When you can’t be on time to meet me so that I have to wait around for you, it makes me believe that I’m not important enough for you to be on time for, and that makes me angry and ruins whatever we were planning to do anyway. I can’t hang around you and be pissed all the time; that’s no fun for either of us. So I’ll wait 15 minutes for you, and after that I’m leaving. And I mean it: 15 minutes. That’s it. Deal?”
In both cases, I then on two occasions left the late friend when she didn’t show up within 15 minutes. One friend took it in reasonable good grace and, realizing I was serious, did make an effort to be more on time for me. We’re still very good friends and we have an unspoken deal: If 15 minutes passes and I leave, I don’t get pissed at her, and she doesn’t get pissed at me. I should also say that for more important formal things like dinner out or something you have tickets for, she always makes the 15 minute window.
The other friend chose to be mortally offended that I “stood her up” (I stood her up!) not once but twice. Although she gave lip service to understanding that it was not reasonable to expect me to wait for her all the time, she still chose to be insulted when I refused to do so, even after I frankly told her that was how it was going to be. So we’re not friends anymore, and I’m totally fine with that.
They’re angry because a well-cooked dinner needs to be served on time to be truly appreciated, and they as hosts of that dinner have a right to expect you to be present to enjoy it as they wanted it enjoyed – hot, properly cooked, and well-presented. That requires you to be on time. They’re angry because they were expecting and looking forward to your company, which is why they invited you, and even if you are fine with them just “going ahead,” they may not be fine going ahead with an evening that is different that what they had planned. They are angry because they know that if they (and the guests) know you were coming or are coming, part of them will still be waiting for you to arrive, even if they do go ahead.
But mostly they’re angry because they know what you have already admitted, which is that your tardiness is really an expression of the unpleasant truth that at bottom you really don’t consider their time to be as important as yours, or by extension them to be as important as you. Don’t get me wrong: I respect your frank admission that self-interest is probably the reason for you personally. Such honesty is refreshing. But then you’d don’t really get to say you don’t know why people are angry: Yoou’re a smart girl; yes, you do.
I would have just left their ticket at the box office and left it at that. If they can’t get there on time, it’s not my problem. Plus, why can’t they buy their own ticket separately and request seating next to you?
We used to have to do this with a friend of mine in college. Always late, mostly a cultural thing; if we told her something started half an hour to an hour before it did, she’d be there on time. It was much simpler that way.
I’m neurotic about being punctual or early, and catch myself going “Oh shit, I’m going to be late!” on a regular basis, then show up with a few minutes to spare at wherever the destination is. It’s almost comical, but I don’t stress too much about it, as it makes me punctual to the vast majority of meetings/events that I attend.
On the other hand, I accept that there are some friends in my life for which time is a nebulous concept that will go away as soon as you step in their door. If I’m visiting with any of them, I accept that they will probably be late, that I will not realize it unless we’re a mixed group of early and late people, and I will probably stay longer hanging out with them than I originally intended. This is no big deal as long as I don’t schedule stuff to do after I meet up with them.
My father in law used to be perpetually, invariably late to everything, whether or not timing was an issue. Dinner? Two to four hours late. Tickets to show/ballgame/any scheduled event? An hour late. Anything at HIS house or his girlfriend’s? Four hours late if you’re lucky; if you weren’t, six hours or it didn’t happen at all. On one memorable occasion, Christmas dinner, which everyone was told to show up for for about 5 PM, was served at 11:30 PM. There was always something. Running errands that would obviously eat up hours of time “on the way” was a very popular one, or just plain leaving late, or a ridiculous underestimation of travel time, or whatever.
The reason he was perpetually late was that he felt his daughters’ time (he has three) was not important, and that’s that. There’s no question about it here; his time, needs, events and wants were important, and his children could wait, end of story. The thing is, though, that I don’t think he was really all that conscious of what he was doing or why; it was just the natural order of things and something that for 20+ years he was used to doing. (He was inconsiderate and thoughtless in a dozen other ways, too; he’s a nice man, really, and I really like him, but this is just the way it had always been, for whatever reason.)
After two or three years of Mrs. RickJay and I being together, his punctuality improved, simply because I wouldn’t take that shit. I never had to yell or scream; I just would carry on with business if needed, and made a point of asking why he’d been delayed or if there had been some misunderstanding about the time. For the first time in years his kid, e.g. me and Mrs. RickJay, wasn’t just sullenly tolerating it, and so he changed. Probably didn’t even notice it.
So is it about power? In my experience it is… but it’s not necessarily (or even usually, IMHO) a conscious decision on the part of a CL person, thinking “I am more important, so I shall disregard this other person’s needs.” It’s an accumulation of years of learned behaviour and unspoken, if not subconscious, power dynamics.
I had a friend in high school who was never on time, always at least forty minutes to an hour and a half late. It was a constant source of amusement and mild irritation for us. He revealed to me in later years that the reason why was that he had crippling OCD. He was constantly late because he was repeatedly checking his stove, making sure the door was locked, et cetera ad nauseum over and over and over. He had to be hospitalized for it a few times.
Since this thread started, I’ve read all of the “reasons” for being late and none of them are very logical. For me, it’s not a conscious decision to be an asshole but rather years of bad behavior. My parents were v.e.r.y. punctual and I think my lateness started as a rebellion of sorts. I’ve watched this week and I do take cues from those around me as to when it’s time to get ready. Inevitably, they are watching for me to get started and consequently no one is ready on time. :smack:
So, I’m turning 50 in a few weeks and it’s time to turn over a new leaf. See? You really can teach old dogs new tricks.
I used to be CL until four things happened: I graduated from grad school, got a job, moved from Boston, and had a kid.
Even though I lived in Boston for 7 years, I never could time shit properly. I also was a chronic night owl that couldn’t get up before 9 am without hitting the snooze button. So I knew that my commute from Watertown to Cambridge was roughly 20 minutes by bike and 12 by car… but this was on a perfect day weather-wise, going against the traffic. Mornings, you could triple the time, easily. And of course, there was the issue of parking. I might get to campus in 12 minutes, but spend 15 trying to park.
Now I live in Texas, traffic is much more predictable. I generally don’t have to be at work around rush hour, so the commute is reasonable. I am usually up around 7 am (no such thing as a snooze button with a two-year-old). And I’m rarely needing to be at meetings at 8 or 9 am, which is where the time distortion field is at its greatest for me. Cognitively, I can’t get my head around how my 15 minute commute will take 45 minutes if I leave at 8 am, 30 if I leave at 8:30, and 15 if I leave at 9.
I’m kind of embarrassed that I was late so often and missed meetings at times. It’s amazing that I managed to stay (for the most part) in the good graces of my professors, peers, and co-workers. (I did manage to piss a professor that I wanted to participate in my dissertation study off so severely that she refused to respond to my e-mails and phone calls - we had a meeting scheduled and I got the wrong day on my calendar. Which I thought was a little strange. I’d rather she tell me to fuck off than just not respond.)
Having said all that, I would not want people to wait for me if I’m late regarding starting meetings, etc. I understand people’s time is important, and I wouldn’t want to make people to hang out waiting for my late ass to show.
I’m typically prepared for latecomers - I have my phone and/or laptop with me, so I can get stuff done. If you’re meeting with me and you’re late, no worries on my end. But if we had 30 minutes scheduled and you come 15 minutes late, you’re only getting 15 minutes…
