Incidentally, I suggest that the Illuminati is not a real organization, and I don’t think you can find strong evidence to the contrary, Daisy Cutter.
Daniel
Minister of Disinformation
The Illuminati
Well, errata, I see you were not up to my challenge. I, therefore, remain unconvinced.
There is a strain of rank hypocrisy of many on the far left that is extremely disturbing. Racist hate speech is racist hate speech. it doesn’t matter who it comes from. If WAmA (White Americans Association) were to spout the very same trash (“We are a silver people with a silver culture.”), they would be roundly condemned by everyone in mainstream political culture, whether conservative or liberal. Yes, I know that Chicanos have been historically oppressed etc., etc. I also know that two wrongs don’t make a right. If it is wrong for “Europeans” to advocate “taking back the land” from “Mexicans,” it’s also wrong for “Mexicans” to advocate “taking back the land” from “Europeans.”
**
Cite?
What you really mean to say is that “raza” is more conveniently translated as “people” or “community.” Please find me one, just one, dictionary where “raza” is translated as “community” instead of “race.”
Frankly, I doubt if you’ll find one. My Spanish dictionary translates “raza” as race or breed. “De raza” is translated as “thoroughbred.” In case you were wondering, “thoroughbred” cannot be translated as “a horse of our community.”
Arguing that MEChA was not founded as an essentially race-based and, indeed, racist organization ala the Black Panthers is rank intellectual dishonesty. It still retains trappings of that era, much like certain U.S. states still make use of the Confederate flag. Trying to pretend that MEChA has really always been composed of a bunch of Unitarians is just embarrassing.
By the way, just to make it clear. This is purely a matter of political calculus. Cruz doesn’t actually subscribe to any of MEChA’s radical agenda. But he doesn’t want to disavow their silliness because he’s hoping to have his cake and eat it, too. If he publicly repudiates any of MEChA’s stated goals, at least some part of the Latino/Hispanic/Chicano community will think he’s a sell out. For the same reason, his opponents will try and force him to take a stand.
First of all, it is becoming obvious to me that this thread is nowhere near achieving a debate along the lines of the OP " Is Bustamante a racist, jew hating extremist ?"
It’s come down to something more like,“Does MECHa (an organization Bustamante once belonged to) have a philosophical document that uses inflamatory language?” Which is really pretty tame and largely a non-issue in my book.
Or perhaps I remain unconvinced of the relevance of your challenge. Many things have already been addressed had you been paying attention.
I don’t think that there’s anything wrong in principle with “white pride” except for
A. due to our sociological conditions in the US it’s completely unecessary, uselessly vague, redundant
and
B. It has been associated with REAL hate groups that do really nasty things.
There’s nothing wrong with taking pride in one’s cultural heritage. But since “white” people often have no reason to question their heritage or conform to a larger majority, the emphasis on “white pride” is suspect.
Now if someone tells me their proud to be Irish, I say “Good for you”. It doesn’t mean their Nazi’s. But identifying with a color says nothing about heritage for whites in the US unless it is a heritage of privilege. OTOH being non-white is a label that people have been forced to deal with whether they want to or not. So I understand why people adopt an identity that uses color in addition to culture as a focal point for justice and change.
I’d like to know specifically where you found “taking back the land.”
Here’s an explanation from their website about what that probably means.
This isn’t some revolutionary “kick the white people off our land” stuff. This is about developing a cooperative economic base that will allow the Chicano community independence and sustainability. The fact that they are addressing serious oppressive circumstances makes the language sound scary. But I have no doubt that indeed they were being exploited and hence there had to be “exploiters”. How are they driven out? By “controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and resources”. Gee, how hateful.
So if it is based on race, it is racist or hateful?
I agree somewhat, from the standpoint of the OP, we pretty much have a non-debate.
I do not recall me giving you permission to address me as honey . One of the rules here is don’t be a jerk, as I’m sure you know.
As far as Godwin’s Law is concerned, I will admit that I’ve never heard of it before (look at my post count, I’m a newb here), but unless it is spelled out in the TOA, that one is not allowed to bring up “Hitler” in any debates, then I don’t see anything wrong with me doing so.
I brought up Nazi Germany, becuase they’re pretty much the first thing that props into mind when thinking of an extreme, racist society. I also took Hamas, as an example. Is one forbidden from mentioning them also in any debate here ?
Nazi Germany - Racist slogans/Had social programs
MEChA - Racist slogans/Has social programs
If White Power is bad, then so is Brown Power , or Black Power ,or Purple Power, or any other form for supremacy groups.
And, no, I don’t find MEChA to be a violent group, but I do find that they have some questionable rhetoric, which has been pointed out here already.
And if that decades old, poorly written document has racial overtones, then why don’t they simply renounce it, and write a new one perhaps ?
And I disagree that one can only be judged on actions and not words. I’m about to break the “sacred” Godwin’s Law again, but Hitler hadn’t yet murdered millions of people when he wrote Mein Kampf.
In essays, starting at least in the nineteenth century (and probably before that), writers wrote about la raza in the sense of community, people of the same ethnic origin. When Martí and Hostos wrote about the raza, they were talking about all Latin Americans (eh… more clearly, those that were once colonies of Spain), no matter their skin tone.
The denotation of raza can be what you said, Truth Seeker, but the connotation of the word is different.
Nice smoke screen there Daisy Cutter, but just before you destroyed that same screen by expanding on what Aztlan stand for:
And indeed those things could (not likely that they would do that, as other posters hve shown) apply to the Aztlan loonies, but why expand on Aztlan at all if there is no connection with Bustamante and very little from Mecha? Is this relevant like the last phrase in your last tirade? No, bringing this about Aztlan is not applicable to the current discussion, it is just a reprehensible tactic to continuing to smear Bustamante, If there is something you are convincing me is to contact all my family in California and the Hispanic media over there to call their attention to the smearing tactics the right is employing, sure there is going to be a backlash, but it is not going to be against Bustamante.
Well, if you find it reprehensible that somebody points out a questionable statement from an article, in this case the rebuttal article to the Fox News story, I would have to assume that you have interesting values.
I would not have brought up Atzlan.net, if not for the fact that the rebuttal article stated that there is no such group as the Aztlan Nation. How does one account for the link I provided, and evidence of the existance of such a group ?
Was the group disbanded, and is now defunct ?
Was the writer aware of this group, and is attempting some cover up scheme ?
Was the writer unware of such a group ?
Is the link I provided bogus or a hoax ?
If there exists such a group as the Nation of Aztlan, is it not correct of me to point this out ?, as this would effect the credibility of that whole rebuttal article.
I don’t know the answer, which is why I posted the link. This is a debate afterall.
I find it ironic that you would find my statements worthy of blame, and rebuke, when I have done nothing but offer evidence, which would seem to contradict a certain statement made in a rebuttal piece.
A week ago, I had not even heard of any of these groups before. If you feel the need to place blame on anybody for this backlash against Bustamante, I would suggest placing it on the man himself, who’s actions triggered all this debate to begin with.
I find it reprehensible that you totally ignored that what I said originally that it is sad that people like you will get upset with people like me when we point to the fact that in this case, the media that you are trusting is jerking you around, if you want to complaint, you know were to go.
Besides, you are now tap dancing: it is not reprehensible that you questioned the rebuttal, what is reprehensible is you expanding on a connection that is not there.
My complaint is mostly directed to the fact that then you rant on the Aztlan thing as if it was still relevant to this discussion anyhow. Now, for what purpose that would be?
It was relevant to point that then, not relevant to expand on it with an implied connection to Bustamante, a connection that even they disallow, this fact seens to not have yet registered, as we can see on your next quote:
And with that last line of yours, you proved my point that your rants show that your acknowledgment, that there is a difference or separation on all the parties mentioned, was a smoke screen; I still stand by my position that your effort here is just the one of a smear.
So, it is apparent to me, that this debate has turned into a discussion of my tap dancing skills, and my abilities to make smoke screens and smear tactics , areas which I was unaware that I even held any talent in, but I am flattered nonetheless. I wonder if I will get accused of pulling a moonwalk in the next reply ?
You mistakenly believe that I have only read what a certain News Media outlet has had to say on the matter.
Most of my opinion regarding MEChA (See, I’m not even going to mention that other group), was derived from checking out and reading their own sites. What better source than from the horse’s mouth itself ?
And, I’ve already previously stated that I agree that I don’t see any link between Bustamante and one of the other more extremist groups.
The fact still remains, that he has been affiliated with MEChA, and he has refused to renounce his ties with them. So, in my view, I see him as being unremorseful of his ties with a movement that uses certain slogans/ideologies which can be construed as racist/divisive to some, depending upon who’s judging.
As for the OP question: Is Bustamante a racist, jew hating extremist ? I’d say, probably not, since there is no evidence suggesting this. This was establised a long time ago already.
If the sole purpose of this debate is to answer that question, then I’d assume it’s been answered already. If you’re implying that I’m still arguing that question, well, I am not.
Good, just remember that in the last line I quoted, there is no separation of the dubious Mecha from the loony Aztlan, so allow me to doubt your new last line.
But, I see that we are getting somewhere, now please think better next time you think it is a good idea to put something like: “obviously X subscribes to racist ideologies” in the OP when there is little to support that.