Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution.

[Marmite_Lover]

Japan has signed contract to finance a $2 billion metro link from Downtown to 6th October City Giza.

I think we will see investors now returning to Egypt now that it is settling down again and we are following the roadmap set out by Mansour cabinet.

[John_Mace]

nm

[John_Mace]

@John_Mace

Oh, I see. I’m sorry, When you referred to your sense of the what the constitution is, you meant you had no sense of what the constitution actually is. My bad.

Your rights are not protected by the tyranny of majority rule. They can be taken away at any time fi enough people want to do so.

Emphasis added.

That was supposed to be “from” not “by”.

Your statement:

@NFBW

Its my rights that are currently coveref ‘under the US Constitution’ that protect me from a tyranny of majority oppressive rule.

Is not true. A majority of Americans, if enough agree, can oppress you all they want through the democratic process. Not a simple majority, but that is not the only kind of “tyranny of the majority” out there.

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

If you are part of the Muslim Community and consent to it … perhaps. But my point is from the standpoint of being non-Muslim and wanting nothing to do with Sharia Law in my personal life. The Constitution does not allow the Muslim Community or any other Religious Group… even if it obtains an electoral Majority across… to impose their ‘law’ on me.

Well, since most Egyptians are part of a Muslim community, why should we care what you, being not a member of such a community, think? And, as noted before, the US Constitution does allow the electorate to choose Sharia law. If the US were 85% Muslim (as is Egypt), it would be a distinct possibility under the current Constitution (which can be amended by a majority significantly smaller than 85%).

I would not impose that on the Egyptian people who do not want it either. That is where I differ from Human Action. What do you think.

HA has not said he would “impose” that on the Egyptian people. You just made that up.

[John_Mace]

It should also be noted that the Egyptian Constitution (both the previous one and the current one) gives Islam the status of “state religion”.

I would not want the US Constitution to have Christianity be the “state religion”, would you? Why are you so eager to “impose” that on the Egyptian people? And here I am using the word “impose” in the sense of “allow”, which must be what you meant when you referred to HA wanting to “impose” his ideas on the Egyptian people.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Marmite_Lover

Japan has signed contract to finance a $2 billion metro link from Downtown to 6th October City Giza.

I think we will see investors now returning to Egypt now that it is settling down again and we are following the roadmap set out by Mansour cabinet.

Did the former Soviet Union have access to a deep sea port in Egypt in times past?

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Well, since m
HA has not said he would “impose” that on the Egyptian people. You just made that up.

I didnt say HA said it. HA has argued that Morsi should have been left to finished his term or be removed by legal constitutional means.

The revolutionaries did not wish to risk Morsi establishing an Islamocracy with that much time. HA dissagree that a coup d’état kept Morsi from imposing his religion on Egyptians who did not want it HA’s standards need not be imposed on Egyptians. Too dangerous for genuine liberty.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Is not true. A majority of Americans, if enough agree, can oppress you all they want through the democratic process.

Sure its possible but in reality Americans view their liberty to be such a precious necessity of life making it practically impossible to conceive any chance that our democracy in action would endorse giving a Bill of Rights liberty back to the very government that freedom loving and science minded Americans perceive to be an obstacle and enemy of liberty.

Thinking that you could get enough freedom haters elected would be difficult enough but then passing a law that deprives even a few Americans of freedom of religion and have that law survive a finding of the Supreme Court to be constitutional - sounds more rediculous than it is impossible.

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

I didnt say HA said it.

Then that’s even worse. You attributed a debate position to him that you yourself agree he didn’t say!

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Then that’s even worse. You attributed a debate position to him that you yourself agree he didn’t say!

Nope. You are in error. I didn’t say he said that ‘he’ would “impose” that on the Egyptian people. I don’t think ‘he’ would. I did say HA is arguing that Morsi should have been left in office which was seen as leading to a situation where Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood would impose their religious beliefs on Egyptians that did not want it.
You see what I wrote was that it is "Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood’ intending to to do “IMPOSING” - Not HA.
HA cannot impose his will on the Egyptian People anyway.

Originally Posted by John Mace: “HA has not said he would “impose” that on the Egyptian people. You just made that up”

If you wanted to re-write over my actual wording accurately to match what I wrote it would go something like this.
"HA has argued a position that was seen by millions of Egyptians who live there that would “impose” that on the Egyptian people."

But then you would be in agreement with me and you could not say that "I made that up’.

[John_Mace]

@NFBW

I would not impose that on the Egyptian people who do not want it either. That is where I differ from Human Action.

So, when you said that is where you differ from HA, what you meant is that is where you don’t differ form him.

OK, I think I’ve got it now.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

So, when you said that is where you differ from HA, what you meant is that is where you don’t differ form him.

OK, I think I’ve got it now.

Nope. We differ on the standards that HA wished to impose on a fledgling democracy. Go back and read it.

So we differ. You are in error again. You make lot’s of errors and you keep multiplying them.

I am arguing that we as observers from a plus-two-centuries-old functioning democracy need not impose the standards we set for our elections and laws on a nation of eighty million who are in a revolutionary period a few years out from overthrowing a dictatorship of three decades.

We differ. Don’t be blind to that.
I differ with many here on setting those American standards on the people of Egypt right now.

“Cite”>(-Dissonance 01-22-2014 10:08 AM) That’s because it has nothing at all to do with democracy, ordinary or otherwise. Military coups are the antithesis of democracy. Why wasn’t your advice to the people of Egypt to sit down and STFU since they had a chance to vote and had voted in Morsi in free and fair elections? In functioning democracies this gets fixed at the next election, not by men in tanks telling the sitting president he’s being removed from office. <“Cite”
As the threat of civil war fades away with each passing day as Marmite Lover explains from the scene, looking back I’m sure I had it right just a few weeks ago. We had no business telling the good people of Egypt to STFU and wait for the next election because that is our standard.
“Cite”>(-NotfooledbyW 01-20-2014 11:08 AM) You are right. Any terrorist acts that have occurred or that will occur do not make it a civil war. To have a full scale civil war the Egyptian army and police would have to split into somewhat equally powerful sides and then have an ability to engage in offensive and defensive combat for a sustained period of time. There would be a preponderance of outside meaningful economic and military support only for one side should a military split occur. And that support goes to the secularists for sure.

The Muslim Brotherhood or any fundamentalists can only operate as terrorists to control the secularists according to their ideology, but if they choose terrorism against Egyptians they will be hunted down and jailed or killed.

I do not believe the vast majority of devout practitioners of Islam in Egypt would support the means of terrorist acts and tactics to live under a strict Sharia law that is enforced through the Egyptian government and Constitution. <“Cite”

[NotfooledbyW]

So many here cannot accept that what Dr. Noha Bakr, a college professor who said, “Everyone around made me feel we are moving forward to a better Egypt, unlike the 2012 constitution referendum where many felt it was institutionalizing an Islamic Empire on the Expense of our Egyptian Identity.”
How to explain the “Egyptian Identity” to so many here who don’t want to hear about it.

(-Marmite Lover 01-21-2014 09:34 AM) Here are some of the comments taken from my interviews with Egyptian voters this week to get a sense of the mood
Dr. Noha Bakr, college professor “Due to the high turn out on the constitution referendum, it took me three hours to be able to cast my vote. I was very happy to stand and witness how everyone was standing full of hope and confidence in the future. Everyone around made me feel we are moving forward to a better Egypt, unlike the 2012 constitution referendum where many felt it was institutionalizing an Islamic Empire on the Expense of our Egyptian Identity”

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

Nope. We differ on the standards that HA wished to impose on a fledgling democracy. Go back and read it.

Can you quote the part where HA wants to “impose” anything on anyone?

[Marmite_Lover]

General Al Sisi out of uniform and on way to Moscow to meet Putin.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1743659_687115304672058_1397847320_n.jpg

I think when Putin visits Egypt he will get a big welcome from the Egyptian people

[Marmite_Lover]

Just to be clear

1. Egyptians are majority Muslims

2. All Egyptians are pious people both Coptic Christians and Muslims

3. Sharia Law ONLY applies to Muslims

4. Criminal Law is the French system in Egypt and everyone is tried under it. That system has no religion attached to it.

5. Family law is Sharia for Muslims, and the Christians have their own law courts for family law and Sharia does not play any part in it. That is because as I already said Sharia ONLY applies to Muslims.

The advantage of Sharia, and why many Christians actually ask to be judged under Sharia is that in the event of:

a) Being given the death sentence by the French Law court the sentence MUST then be ratified by the Al Azhar to make sure it complies with Sharia Law. IF the sentence of death does not fit with Sharia in that case then they get life in prison. If it does fit with Sharia then they get death penalty.

b) Christians are not allowed to divorce under their Pope. Many Coptic Christians then convert to Islam because Islam and Sharia Law allows divorce.

c) Christians sometimes convert to Islam if they feel their church and pope does not allow them their rights of inheritance, child custody, re marriage etc.

d) Christians do not have the same protection of their church when they kill someone by accident, like in a car accident as Muslims do.
Part of the manslaughter charge involves Sharia conditions which help a lot in the French criminal court in French making their decision according to the relatives of the dead person. So the Christians have that disadvantage compared to Muslims.

The Church in Egypt is VERY VERY strict. It should not be compared to Western churches.

[Marmite_Lover]

Egyptian Coptic Christian billionaire Tycoon Naguib Saweiris backs El Sisi for President of Egypt.

Egypt’s business tycoon and founder of one of the main liberal parties, **Naguib Sawiris, says he is backing Field Marshal Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi for the presidency **and hopes “he will make up his mind on his candidacy soon.”
**
“Most of the political forces agree on choosing El-Sisi as president… to end the status of confusion, chaos and terrorism that disseminated nationwide,” **Sawiris said in a lengthy interview published Wednesday in Al-Ahram’s Arabic newspaper.

Egypt’s military chief, who has grown increasingly popular since the ouster of Islamist former president Mohamed Morsi, is widely expected to announce his candidacy for the presidency after gaining vast popular support and after the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) also backed him, deeming his candidacy a “national duty.”

“People considered El-Sisi as a saviour who rescued them from [Muslim Brotherhood] tyranny,” Sawiris said.

Sawiris added, however, that candidates would have to present their programmes and that people would choose.

“Everyone is waiting to know [El-Sisi’s] political vision, his ideas on the country’s polarisation and the suggested themes to eradicate terrorism,” Sawiris said.

He also said priorities for the next president should include implementing democracy, accepting criticism, collaborating with political forces, rebuilding the economy and bringing back security and order to the streets.

“We hope the next president would know that he is elected by people and is subject to the supervision of the people and that he will not bring us back to the much dreaded past and dictatorship,” he added…

Sawiris also spoke about his party’s plans in the parliamentary elections and his suggestions for reviving the economy in the coming period.
His party, the Free Egyptians, was formed in 2011 after the revolution. It was engaged in the biggest opposition coalition against Morsi, the National Salvation Front, which he described as the “a nail in the coffin of the Brotherhood.”

“There is great pressure to curtail the role of the political parties,” Sawiris said. “A lot of political parties have established a presence among the people, but did not fulfill the hopes of the Egyptians because they are new and could not face a secretive organisation (the Muslim Brotherhood) greatly funded.”

Sawiris believes coalitions gathering small parties would be helpful for the country’s future and for the upcoming parliamentary elections in summer.

“We hope [the Free Egyptians] get the greatest number of seats (in parliament),” Sawiris said, adding that the elections drive would focus on “attracting figures who did not change their stances since 25 January, reaching popular support in the urban areas and mingling small parties with the same vision.”

Being one the most important businessmen in Egypt, Sawiris said he has plans to help revive the economy but would not present them to the current interim cabinet but rather the coming cabinet, because they would take at least four years to implement.

“This government worked in a tough period and held large responsibility … They had a big challenge of a state that spends more than it gets and depends on aid and loans,” Sawiris said.

Sawiris remained positive on the standing of Copts in the new constitution approved last month by 98 percent of voters.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Can you quote the part where HA wants to “impose” anything on anyone?

H.Action is imposing his standards for ‘real democracy’ and ‘due process’ on Egypt’s revolution and transition to democracy.
(-Human Action 01-17-2014 07:24 PM ) We propaganda-consuming Westerns are rather enamored of rule of law, it’s done right by us for some time now. <“Cite”
(-Human Action 01-21-2014 09:27 AM) Is a “real democracy” what they have now, where the military removes the president from power, then the president’s party and those similar to them (e.g., Strong Egypt) are suppressed from organizing and campaigning? … “Real democracy” is in peril all right, but not only, or even primarily, from Morsi. <“Cite”
(-Human Action 01-21-2014 09:32 AM) What “due process” accompanied Morsi’s removal, again? <“Cite”
(-Human Action 01-21-2014 03:57 PM) I’m not soothsayer, nor are you, but it certainly seems like the path to democracy is found through practicing, y’know, democracy, not the military removing the elected president from power in a coup, then arresting people who campaigned against the new, even-more-pro-army constitution. Why, that’s not democracy at all, come to think of it. <“Cite”
(-Human Action 01-21-2014 06:48 PM) Is there a comparable nation’s experience you can cite here? Because what you’ve written here is like something out of Orwell: democracy must be overthrown, so that democracy can, someday, hopefully, somehow, prevail. If you supported the coup because you think the wrong man got elected, then you don’t actually support democracy at all. <“Cite”

Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW And do you think Morsi was headed for tolerance for dissent if he could have gotten the police and army to go along with his agenda. <“Cite”

(-Human Action 01-21-2014 09:16 PM) He at least had the legitimacy of being elected, and the police and army could have nicely checked his power to do anything too egregious. After his term was up, the Egyptian people could have decided if they wanted more of the same, or something different. Instead, all power is, again, concentrated in the military.

Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW I’m not saying these arrests are proper or aligned with protecting basic human rights but there are conditions that over-ride the perfect path to democracy that you as an American thinks should be pure and painless. <“Cite”

(-Human Action 01-21-2014 09:16 PM) You’re begging the question that military government will delivery democracy better than the actual democratically-elected government would have, which the military deposed. Why should anyone believe that the military is on the side of democracy, or that this period is a transition into anything but more military rule?

[NotfooledbyW]

@Marmite_Lover

General Al Sisi out of uniform and on way to Moscow to meet Putin.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1743659_687115304672058_1397847320_n.jpg

I think when Putin visits Egypt he will get a big welcome from the Egyptian people

When any world leader who advocates a strong relationship with Israel also can be welcomed by the great people of Egypt … it is a wonderful event and will do much for keeping longstanding peaceful relations among all nations and peoples living in that part of the world.
All the anti-Americanism in Egypt right now can hopefully settle out with the Egyptian people’s restored friendship with people of Russia.

And the Saudis are footing the bill… and Iran and Islamist extremism of old Iranian order is taking the biggest hit.
And Terr, awhile back posted a link that contained this:

NotfooledbyW 01-21-2014 06:00 PM On another note, Terr’s link is quite an interesting find. It contains this

!! “The SCAF, like Mubarak, finds anti-Americanism useful in masking its strong relationship with Washington. Secular elites and felool (“remnants” of Mubarak’s regime) find it useful in deflecting attention from their own return to grace. The Muslim Brotherhood finds it useful in returning to the movement’s own anti-American comfort zone. Anti-Brotherhood activists find it useful as a way of appealing to nationalist public opinion to justify support for the coup. (Leaders of the anti-Morsy Tamarod campaign have been notably enthusiastic about this extreme state-nationalist agenda.”!!

Read more: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...im_brotherhood

Perhaps that was premature for discussion on this thread, but perhaps now someone will be willing to do so.

The gist is:
The SCAF, like Mubarak, finds anti-Americanism useful…

Secular elites and felool (“remnants” of Mubarak’s regime) find it useful…

The Muslim Brotherhood finds it useful…
Anti-Americanism is certainly quite useful in Egypt these past few years…
If all goes well with the transition to Democracy as I think it will … then Putin gets all the credit and arms sales and trade deals and all will be good.

If the Secular elites are not serious about giving power to the people… the youth and elders of Egypt who started the revolution … then Putin must become involved in the blame…

Either way now - no matter how it all goes down over the next decade and beyond… the USA is off the hook… The Israelis seem content with the elimination of the Muslim Brotherhood right next door … and for the most part… I don’t see a down side for the US with Putin Stepping in at this point in history…

[NotfooledbyW]

@Marmite_Lover

Egyptian Coptic Christian billionaire Tycoon Naguib Saweiris backs El Sisi for President of Egypt.

America’s political right wing pundit class and politicians and the masses will find it hard to criticize that headline…

Thanks for the updates… All of them.