Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution.

The overriding fact to youn argument’s reliance on the slavery issue right now is that I do not have to make that decision. Your ‘slave’ argument is useless since owning slaves is not practiced currently in Egypt.

That you choose to argue slavery while ignoring the point about women and non-propertied males shows how weak your overall argument is.

There are all the voting aged women in Egypt as well as an millions of males that do not own fifty acres of land that have the right to vote in Egypt but in our first half century at least of democracy - that group of citizenry could not.

Do you have a counter argument on the basis of reality in Rgypt today or will you pass?

I wasn’t making a “slavery argument”, I was just wondering how far you will forgive anti democratic action. Since I don’t have to predict the future, I won’t. I simply think you are ridiculously over confident about you future predicting abilities. You can take that as a debate victory if you want to.

Can you remind me when we had a coup in the US? I must have been sick the day that was covered in my history class.

Don’t you remember? It was the one that put Ford into office.

Regards,
Shodan

The real question is if we “give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours” that amounts to between 80 years (for non-whites to vote) and 130 years (for women to vote). Is that the amount of time you are really talking about, NotfooledbyW?

You’re being facetious.

I hope.

**
Another nail in the coffin of Egyptian/US relations**

Could you tell us why you quoted my words as if to respond but then post a reply that has no relationship at all to the question I asked.
Perhaps you were sick the days in grade school when they taught that the first US President was the top general of the Continental Army and then fortunately presided as the first term President without pushing an agenda to subvert/convert the Federal Government into a an enforcement agency of something akin to Islamic extremist Sharia law.
Had Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Sam and John, etc had somehow witnessed (if Christian women could vote) some religious evangelical nut job win the first US election (that you said was no democracy) and override the principle of freedom of religion / then there may have been a coup.

That would be fairly comparing the US to Egypt’s first revolutionary election.
But what would it matter anyway since you said it was not democracy when scored of US Presidents were elected?

the unbelievable arrogance of Americans !! :rolleyes:

who the hell cares about what amount of time you give us for anything!!!

He’s being wrong if he is referring to me. I never said there was a coup in the US. Shodan won’t debate me head on I guess.

Not to mention a Civil War along the way, which he has assured us won’t happen.

According to Mace then, we had no democracy in America for 130 years.

So if the Egyptians get a democracy that satisfies Human Action’s standards as a minimum quicker than 130 years, then the Egyptians will have done it better than we did. There’s not much right about Anerican’s criticizing the Egytian’s method and timetable on their path from revolution to democracy is there?

I hope they get it done right after the second revolt. I don’t think Egyptians will need as much time as we did and they won’t need a civil war.

Good for them. They are a great nation and people.

Well, they shouldn’t need as much time. There are a number of democracies in the world and lots of history now so it would be kind of idiotic to not learn from what’s gone before them. But all these comparisons to US democracy are kinda dumb, imho. Very likely they’ll have to be more like Turkey where, for the last 90 years, their courts can and will ban political parties they deem “anti-secular”.

Are you talking to yourself? You ask me a question, and then you answer it.

This is taken from the first post I quoted, above:

No, I don’t “expect” anything. I’m just calling a spade a spade. When you have a coup, you don’t have democracy. The US never had any coups, so I’m not so sure why you are so eager to make the comparison.

One needs to read the lead up to the final paragraph in this essay to get it.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/foulath-hadid-mishana-hosseinioun/middle-east-long-term-view

Nothing says an end to “arbitrary rule” and a “binding social contract” like a military coup.

(John Mace 02-13-2014 12:18 PM} Alternatively, you could admit you misspoke once in awhile instead of pretending what you wrote wasn’t what you wrote. <“Cite”

When you show me ‘explicitly’ where you think I misspoke I would be quite happy to admit I misspoke if that is what is written here shows.

And let’s be clear, ‘explicitly’ is not citing a third party cited by me when I say it is up to that third party directly involved in the situation who gets to decide… not me.

That’s already been done by me and others so many times in this thread it’s not funny. Literally, not funny.

Any further exploration of that topic is best suited to the Pit thread devoted specifically to you.

Perhaps Mace will be able to see that Carnalk and I were addressing the post-Morsi-coup election in Egypt.
(-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 04:34 PM) You are wrong about several things but the primary one is that the military is doing the same thing they have always done. Can you explain why you see it that way? >“Cite”
(-CarnalK 02-13-2014 04:45 PM) Mainly that they not going to allow any Islamist candidates - banning the MB just like they did in the early 50’s. >“Cite”
(-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 06:28 PM) The victors of the American Revolution set up the new Constitution but did not find it necessary to dictate to the states who had the ‘right’ to vote. Surely you are aware of this: “Cite”>> .Originally, the U.S. Constitution did not define who could vote and was simply built around a concept of rights of “person”, with voting not explicitly included in the rights. When the country was founded, in most states, only non-Negro men with real property-usually of at least 50 acres- (land) or sufficient wealth for taxation were permitted to vote. … Unpropertied men and women, including slaves, were largely denied the franchise. … Literacy tests, poll taxes, and ***even religious tests ***were used in various places, and most white women, people of color, and Native Americans still could not vote. <<“Cite”
(-CarnalK 02-13-2014 08:47 PM) So, you really want to compare the voting rights of the Muslim Brotherhood with negro slaves in early America? Most interesting <“Cite”
(-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 09:06 PM) Not just slaves… It was **women and males without property… ** The comparison is if it was good enough for our democracy … why can’t Islamists Extremists Organizations be restricted from voting? The continuation of my point is that the victors of the rebellion gets to decide how to set up the transition to the new legal political order. <"Cite
(-John Mace 02-13-2014 09:53 PM) Right. But that’s not democracy. Why do you hate democracy? <"Cite
(-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 11:43 PM) When did America go from no democracy to having a democracy. A functional democracy in your mind? Would it be right and fair to give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours? <"Cite
(-John Mace 02-14-2014 08:07 AM) Can **you remind me when we had a coup **in the US? I must have been sick the day that was covered in my history class. <"Cite
(-NotfooledbyW 02-14-2014 01:41 PM) Could you tell us why you quoted my words as if to respond but then post a reply that has no relationship at all to the question I asked. <"Cite
I never said the USA had a coup. Why would I have to remind Mace of anything about a coup in the US. CarnalK and I reached a point where the election following the coup in Egypt was being discussed. It is quite annoying that Mace came in and disrupted it.
John Mace wrote on 02-13-2014 at 09:53 PM that it was "not democracy" in the US because the victors of the American rebellion decided to set up the transition to the new legal political order without granting women and unpropertied males the power to vote in elections. So the point has been conceded by Mace that the Egyptians do not have to achieve functional democracy for about another 130 years to be worse at it than Americans have done.
Mace’s latest comment was to declare, on 02-14-2014 at 09:06 PM “When you have a coup, you don’t have democracy”. … So what? Mace says the US had ‘no democracy’ for 130 years. Egyptians have plenty of time to get there … and it looks like they are headed there without a civil war like American democracy went through.

That is the problem J.Mace. You are right. Citing a third party instead of me. Why not admit you made an error and be done with it.