Well, not really. From what I understood from that VH-1 show, the Mystery technique is mostly about wearing silly hats.
I bring it up in my posts because a lot of people assume traditional pickup promotes raping chicks because they haven’t actually studied or put into practice the teachings, so I kind of have to throw out the “hey, this is a normal guy, just like normal people you know” thing if I’m giving examples about someone who isn’t as horrible and awful as me.
Yep. Careful, some people consider that evil manipulation. And if the girl enjoys your time together, you’re just an evil manipulator who got away with it. :rolleyes:
Really? Where did I say that exactly? You’re very good at putting words in my mouth. I’m using that as an example of why that’s a silly notion. If your view is a black and white “if she says no through the whole thing, it’s rape”, and you (the collective you, not you specifically) are determined to deny there are any shades of gray involved, then you are saying those situations are rape as well. This is very simple logic.
Zing! I guess I was too busy raping to log on, it’s been a hectic week with all the crushing women’s souls and everything. :rolleyes:
No I’m not. PUA maneuvers work with women who lack confidence and self-esteem (though if the girl is too low self-esteem, they won’t work) as well as with women who have it fully together mentally (the more confident the woman the better the concepts work).
You have to understand that when I mention a specfic type of girl, that’s not the only type of girl I pick up. In this thread we’re talking about girls who dress slutty and rape. There’s no reason for me to bring up a conservatively dressed girl who likes candlelight and bubble-baths before a night of slow romantic sex in this thread.
You would be surprised.
Oh I’d love to just go “Hi, want to fuck?” and have girls say “Sure, let’s go to my place!” But the reality is that the hot, high-quality, socially outgoing girls have reputations to worry about because they’re so socially connected so they have to play a few games here and there to weed out guys that aren’t as socially competant as them because EVERY guy wants to date/fuck them.
It is when you go home with girls you’ve met less than 10 hours prior, because there hasn’t been much time to build up comfort. There’s not really any protesting on the third date because she’s comfortable with you and you both know it’s going down, but I like to go for sex as fast as possible because I like sex and the whole seduction is fun.
Also the protesting type are just a subsect of women. Like I say, these aren’t the only types of women I’ve picked up, these are just the type that are relevant to this thread.
That’s a silly judgement.
Again, silly. You’re just insulting people for not thinking like you. The only people who don’t like Cheerios are pedophiles!!!1111
haha Shit. Ya, it is definately not common for women to not say what they mean. You are totally right, there definately no cases of this except in unconfident possibly crazy women. You don’t hold the wives of your fellow Dopers in very high esteem I guess hey: Why do women say the opposite of what they mean? - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board
This is primarily what it is. The attraction happens so fast that they’re scared to admit it because they think they’ll be judged as sluts, so they put up token resistance. I’m just good at reading the underlying attraction behind the token resistance, that’s all.
Another silly statement based on your biases against PUAs. I’m sorry you’re unable to care about people you meet, but please don’t project that on me. If I didn’t give a shit about them, they wouldn’t want to hang out more than once. I’m still in touch with girls I’ve met 4+ years ago.
:rolleyes: That’s why we don’t push through a solid no, we push through token “we shouldn’t be doing this…” that girls put up to avoid being judged as sluts for wanting sex. That’s why you don’t say “Would you like to come up to my place so I can do you in the bum?” expecting them to go “Why yes, I am confident in admitting that I am a sexual being, and while we’ve only known eachother for 4 hours I am fine with admitting that I would love for you to do me in the bum!” You say “Want to come up for a cup of coffee/to watch a movie/to listen to that album/etc.” and they say “Yes, that coffee/movie/album sounds great!”
- Not all women, but some women. They’ve admitted to me that they like it for that exact reason. It’s not “imagining”. These are the things you find out during the pillow talk after sex. 2) You imagine a lot of stuff about how we think that isn’t true or isn’t what I’m saying, I wish you would stop.
heh…no comment.
Yes, that definately does sound good in theory. It sounds great when every other woman says it too, because it’s the logical rational thing to say. That’s why the guys who stay down wonder why women end up putting them in their friend zone and date assholes like myself. 
It would be awesome if what women said attracted them and what actually attracted them were the same thing, but…
This is London Magazine - (“Women are so sensitive about being labelled ‘whores’ that they are very reluctant to be honest about their sexual behaviour, even in supposedly anonymous surveys,”)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all - (this one’s a long read, the jist is in this quote: “And with the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person. The readings from the plethysmograph and the keypad weren’t in much accord.” “According to an analysis of relevant studies published last year in The Journal of Sex Research, an analysis that defines rape as involving “the use of physical force, threat of force, or incapacitation through, for example, sleep or intoxication, to coerce a woman into sexual activity against her will,” between one-third and more than one-half of women have entertained such fantasies, often during intercourse, with at least 1 in 10 women fantasizing about sexual assault at least once per month in a pleasurable way.”)
The nature of women's rape fantasies: an analysis of prevalence, frequency, and contents - PubMed - (“Results indicated that 62% of women have had a rape fantasy”, “rape fantasies were found to exist on an erotic-aversive continuum, with 9% completely aversive, 45% completely erotic, and 46% both erotic and aversive.”)
APA PsycNet - (“We found that 39.3% of the women had engaged in token resistance at least once. Their reasons fell into three categories: practical, inhibition-related, and manipulative reasons.”)
bla bla bla I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: what women say they want when they’re answering logically and rationally and unemotionally, and what they actually respond to in the moment are often WILDLY different things.
:rolleyes: That’s why I said in an earlier post in this thread that the guy who actually gets girls pushes a bit to make sure it’s not token resistance, then chills and is cool with not having sex, because it’s not a rare event for him. But I wouldn’t expect you to start reading my posts now, you’d clearly rather just make judgements and accusations that are based completely on your own biases.
Ultimately it’s understandable the reaction it gets. I’ve said before that signing up here, I don’t really expect people to agree with me (or at least definately not to openly agree with me in a thread where they’ll get bombarded with rage and insults like I do haha), I’m just offering up a very different (and extremely unemotional/logical) perspective from the socially acceptable norms.
Attraction/seduction/etc. are VERY controversial subject, and most people who don’t actually go out and test the stuff out are just people who read it and think “this does/doesn’t jive with my world view, so I will support/villify these concepts.”
For the record: Please don’t lump Mijin in with me. His description is the majority of the PUA community. They’re just nice guys who didn’t know how to come off as attractive to women, that’s all. I represent a very extreme end of the PUA community…I like casual sex with a variety of partners, so I focus on getting girls into bed as quick as possible, that’s why I have a ton of experience and a deep understanding of how fast-attraction works and the psychology that relates to it and relates to the aftermath of it. Other PUAs are content with the standard 3-dates-before-sex thing normal non-PUA guys do and don’t encounter the same “rape tightrope” situations.
I’m also an extremely analytical person and able to look at things objectively, which makes me sound like a callous aspergers guy, but really I just understand that in discussions like this it doesn’t do any good to get all over-emotional about it and ignore the very simple underlying logic in explaining it. That’s why I make fun of the responses where the posters just insult me or cast ignorant judgements based on disliking me, instead of actually saying “Well you say A and B, but from what I can tell C seems to contradict that, how do you explain this?”
- TWTTWN
Assuming that guy in your story was real, he’s not normal, and he’s not like people I know; rather, he’s like the idiot man-child star of a Judd Apatow movie.
Guy has a one-night-stand: normal.
Guy whispers porn-talk in the girl’s ear: vaguely Apatow material.
Girl freaks out: again, vaguely Apatow material, but I’ll buy it.
Instead of immediately trying to make the situation right, guy calls his buddy and asks for advice while the girl is huddled in the corner: are you shitting me? This is normal behavior in your circles?
And even then, there’s no reason to be afraid of a false rape accusation. That’s just ridiculous.
Interestingly, in my college years, I had about the same plan for sexual activity as you do (that is, casual sex with as many partners as possible) and I still think you come across as creepy, because I’ve never needed to come anywhere near a “rape tightrope” to get all the girls I could handle.
Which is why I think you’re creepy–you’re bragging about being able to skirt the line on a problem that doesn’t actually exist. Reminds me of my frat brothers who needed the girl to get drunk before they had a shot at her.
Can we get back to the topic of the thread now instead of reading dissertations about how much tail you get?
Well, TheWhoToTheWhatNow, since you’re being cool with my implied criticism of you, I have to admit that there are some areas in which I agree.
I’m dubious about this whole thing of “A mature woman would never do the ‘but we shouldn’t’ thing”.
As a guy, I wish I could be open and upfront about sex from the get go. The way that gay men can apparently just proposition other men.
But women don’t want things to play out like that. Even women who are just out to get laid want you to play the game.
Obviously: this has little to do with the OP, or rape. And what someone wears doesn’t justify anything.
I don’t know much about PUA culture except what guys like TWTTWN gush about it, and so everything dismissive I’m saying about PUAs in this thread and others, it’s in direct response to what TWTTWN and others like him have written.As far as I can see, the only thing yall have in common is that you both call yourselves PUAs.
Which is something that, admittedly, makes no sense to me. If it’s just a matter of learning how to be more confident and attractive, why label yourself with a term that has this kind of connotation? Why label yourself with any special term? It’s like calling yourself a Cassanova unironically. People are going to laugh at that, and it has nothing to do with stigma associated with their behavior.
My issue is that these kinds of statements are never qualified appropriatedly. The women that you’re hooking up with are women who “don’t want things to play out like that”. It’s not all women or even most women. Just the ones you’re meeting in bars and trying to take home that night.
There is a selection bias at work, in other words.
You’re going to the wrong kinda clubs and hitting on the wrong kinda women. I’ve had women literally grab my crotch and drag me to someplace private when I was in my 20s. The point of me saying this is that damnit, no means no and yes means yes and maybe means maybe. Too many damn guys who wear the mantle of PUA seem to want to convince me that “insufficiently forceful no means maybe” instead of “I’m really bad at telling ‘maybe’ and ‘no’ apart”.
Which nicely goes back to the topic of the thread. “All women”, or even “all women who dress a certain way”, are not sending the same messages even with identical behaviors. Just like everyone else in every other situation.
Interesting you should bring this up; what do you think would happen to a man who used this same technique?
Aside from the occasional woman who might grab your crotch and drag you off, the majority of them need to hear the right things from a man before they decide to go with him and have sex. And I think most men would like to pick up and have sex with the women who they want, rather than waiting around for someone to grab their crotch.
I absolutely do not believe that no always means no, in the context of picking a woman up. I do, however, think that it’s best to assume that no means no during the sex act.
Let me clarify–after a nice bit of conversation, not involving any PUA techniques or whatever, I indicated pretty clearly that I’d be amenable to her company, after which she chose that decidedly nonstandard method. The point being refuted was “even women who are out to get laid want you to play the game”–and I do apologize for my own lack of clarity on the matter.
In my example, the only game being played was “we’re both here to get laid, and no one is pussyfooting around that fact”.
I should hope so, unless you are trusting to post-rape psychology to make it all better or are in a context where safewords have been agreed upon.
Because the connotation is inaccurate. I also call myself an atheist, despite all the misconceptions many people have about that.
Actually I was making an observation about most women, not just women I had tried to hook up with. The problem is that there is a baggage with making this observation…saying that womens’ attraction works differently to mens’ is interpreted by some to mean “women are all the same” or “women don’t like sex”.
But I’m not saying either of these things. I’m just saying there’s a difference in how we become attracted to someone, and how we’d like to hook up.
e.g. One-night stands.
Most guys could look at a woman and decide immediately if they would be willing to sleep with her. But it’s not that personality is not important to us; it’s that it’s not important for sex.
But for women it seems to be more like “That guy’s good looking enough that I would provisionally sleep with him. But I need to know that he’s not ‘skeevy’ or, ironically, desperate, first”.
Here’s the most favorable connotation of PUA: “A man who is modeling certain behaviors to attract women for the purposes of getting laid.” If you don’t agree with this characterization, how else would you revise it?
Even going with this connotation, I don’t see why anyone would want to go by this label. It will automatically distinguish you from guys who naturally have a knack for attracting women because they are naturally confident and charismatic.
I think the “baggage” comes in when all the observations about women tend to reduce them to irrational, easy-to-manipulate airheads who are in need of a man to show them what they really want, despite the words coming out of their mouth. But saying something as basic as men and women are different when it comes to pursuing sex isn’t exactly controversial.
I agree with this to an extent (even though I think any guy who is worried about a false rape accusation–not you necessarily–should consider personality an important consideration before taking someone home). A guy can look like an Adonis but if he trips my creepy meter, he does not have a chance with me. Which gets us back to the pseudo-protesting woman thing. Women who say no and really mean it will not impressed if you keep pushing them sex. Why? Because that signals “skeevy” or “desperate” behavior to them.
When a woman pseudo-protests, you should really wonder what is going on in her head. Maybe there is something about your approach that is causing her to behave in this way or maybe she’s naturally diffident about her choices. If you’re attracting a lot of pseudo-protesting women but not so many of the others–* but you wish you could attract the others*–it might be as simple as changing your tactics.
What I’ve been trying to say over many posts now is that this caricature is wrong.
e.g. The second half of The Game, is all about how Style meets “the one” and falls in love.
Here in the UK, two of the most famous PUAs are Adam Lyons; who’s married, and continues to teach, and Matthew Hussey; who’s been in a serious relationship for some years now and whose girlfriend comes along to all his seminars.
But why would that be a bad thing?
With my piano-playing for example, I’m happy to tell people that I’m not a natural and have had to work harder than my peers to get where I am. Generally people find this admirable if anything.
I think all this comes down to a general feeling that men aren’t supposed to improve at this sort of thing. If you’re a guy who lacks confidence, well…sucks to be you. Unconfident men deserve to be alone, end of.
Well thanks for the advice but note again, I’m not talking only about my specific experiences with approaching women.
I’m talking about an observation made that includes my own experiences plus the experiences of friends of both genders, plus all the culture that surrounds us.
Women, often, do not like a man to be very direct about sex prior to the first time she has slept with him.
And generally they need to feel comfortable around a guy before they can sleep with him (while this may seem obvious, it really doesn’t apply when you switch the genders).
I was under the impression we’d seen (admittedly unscientific) polls on the dope that showed both of those notions to be bad assumptions.
Yeah, there’s a few issues with this:
- Polls are dispropotionately responded to by people with minority views.
- I don’t think the dope constitutes a representative sample.
and
- They always frame these hypotheticals the wrong way. For example, I saw one poll which asked “If the world’s most good-looking guy propositioned you, would you accept?” and the fact that many women replied “yes” apparently proved that men and women generally have the same feelings wrt casual sex :rolleyes:
A much better hypothetical would have been “An ok-looking guy comes over to you in a cafe and asks if you want to go have sex. He admits that he is desperate, and a virgin”.
…Because this is a situation where if you flip the genders you’d get very different responses.
But you’re still not telling what you think is right. Help me see what you see when you hear someone call themselves a “pick-up artist”.
Because it’s an admission that you’re not a normal dude who is just being himself and meeting people as they come. Rather you’re approaching flirting/dating with geek-levels of seriousness and dedication. Geek-levels of anything are often unattractive traits, and if The Game doesn’t explain this to its target audience, it really should, since it’s probably the #1 stumbling block for socially inept men, I’d suspect.
Not at all. No one is saying unconfident men shouldn’t learn how to more confident. A lot of people, men and women, have to learn how to do this. And it’s because of this that I fail to see the need to call yourself a special label.
I don’t disagree with this.
My first job after getting out of the Army was working for a fast food joint. (I cannot count the number of times I got told I was overqualified.) A guy there kept cornering the female workers—many of whom were quite young—in doorways and other places----and trying to feel them up. It was an odd place to work; when I got mugged on the way to work one morning and pretty badly beaten up the (female) manager said, “Well, no wonder you got mugged.” Apparently having a (rather) younger boyfriend and not being interested in getting married, getting pregnant, (not necessarily in that order), and then in getting divorced made me violate some standards of hers.
Some years later I was just flipping through the paper and there was the unmistakable face of that coworker. He’d been arresting for raping a kid and the cops didn’t believe it was the only time he’d done this.
Another incident is harder to describe. When I was early in my Army career, I was packing my room up for my next duty post. My roomie had already moved on, and the barracks was mostly empty. And then the platoon NCO came in the room and mentioned he’d seen me off duty, how good I looked…and he closed and locked the door behind him. The air in that room changed. He greatly outranked me, and he could ruin my life so thoroughly it was awe-inspiring. And he was in total denial, I could see it. I’m sure to this day he thinks he’s a nice guy, great family man—he was married—and I wonder if he’s done this again. He kept slowly moving toward me, this guy I thought of to the point as a mentor, making it plain he wasn’t the wonderful man I thought he was, and he kept talking to me. At me. The closer he got the more I realized just how much danger I was in. In the Army, accusing somebody of a higher rank of something is in itself a crime, and if there’s not enough evidence, victims often find themselves not only victimized, but accused of insubordination themselves. So I knew that there was little to no chance of getting believed.
And the final thing about this guy is that he was telling himself the whole time that it was my fault, little hussy, that I was leading him on—by backing away and going white with fear----that he was lying to himself so he could lie convincingly to others, and that if he ever was made to look at what he was doing it would kill him. I wondered what he’d do if he had to see what he was doing.
I have no idea what I said or what I did to get out of there. He was between me and the door. He could have written me up for something, called in a witness to watch him accuse me of it, make up evidence, and my denials would have sounded like guilt. He would have been believed. With his rank, he had that power.
I just feel compelled to add a better story. I had drill at a place fifteen miles from home, and I used to bike it. I popped a tire one day, platoon NCO saw it, offered me a ride home. Now, I absolutely idealized this guy, and still do to this day. He was wonderful, didn’t care if you were female, he’d recognize you just like he would the guys if you did something worth recognizing, and he was amazingly encouraging. So it was kind of depressing to see him hoot and holler at the window at some woman jogging by. I must have said something, because a few weeks later he approached me and apologized, sincerely and without any effort to cover his butt. He didn’t want me or any of the women to feel like he might not view them the same way as the guys. One of the senior female NCOs had approached him because he was kind of flirty in the office, too, and she told him he had to consider the feelings of some of the very young and new female troops. She put it to him in such a way that he understood he might be having a negative effect on his troops, and he loved his troops. Funny thing is, when I tell that story, I always get a lot of guys who scoff, reject it, don’t want to believe it, whatever. The guy changed his behavior, and he appreciated his female troops just as much as he did the male ones, so that’s why he did that. He did it because he cared about them, and it wasn’t a sexual thing. Objections usually come from guys who make dubious claims about sex, getting laid, and stuff like that.
Sounds like you played the game.
Whether you intended to or not, you engaged in conversation (which likely did involve PUA techniques, just unconsciously) in such a way that made a woman you had just met desire you sexually.
Many, probably most guys, have never had that experience, and left to themselves never will.
Really? Really?
You know, women are people, too. And if you like a woman, it’s apparent. If you find her interesting, that’s apparent, too. These things alone can be really sexy—no techniques or tricks needed.
Not as I understand the techniques, which I honestly find kinda hokey.
Nothing about the above statements disproves the main thrust of my point–if she wants you, she wants you, and if she doesn’t, back the hell off already.