Well, I can’t say I’m an expert, but the limited amount of PUA materials I’ve read say things like “make eye contact, but don’t stare,” or “touch her elbow and see how she reacts,” “don’t look *too *interested in her,” or things like that – obvious to you, perhaps, but emphatically not to most guys. (e.g. I was in my 30s before I learned not to be excessive with compliments.)
You were responding to the idea that “even women who are out to get laid want you to play the game.” I’m pointing out that you did, in fact, play the game. You did not walk in like John Nash and simply offer to exchange bodily fluids, or use some obviously cheesy pickup line you stole from a movie, or nervously mumble and stumble over yourself and say “you’re, like, hot and stuff … do you wanna like, I dunno, like, go somewhere?”
You were charming and funny and cool. And that is the game. For many man, acting that way around a woman is decidedly unnatural, and unaided they will never, ever be able do it well enough to have a woman grab their crotch in a bar. So they (the ones who want that sort of thing, anyway) turn to PUA techniques.
Attracting a woman =/= meeting a desirable woman in a bar and have her express a desire to have sex immediately (e.g. “after a nice bit of conversation” she grabbed his crotch)
While I suppose that’s true to an extent, the guy was alleging that women always play hard-to-get and maybe-no you at first, because they always want you to pursue them and they are always conscious about not being thought about as sluts. I can assure you, the women that this has worked on knew that I was (admittedly politely and charmingly, to the extent of my ability) planning on walking out of that bar/club/concert and straight into bed from the get-go, and there was no dodging or lack of up-frontness about it.
At least part of this is attributable to “college town”, sure. Which could just as easily be called “know your audience”.
Which goes back to the original sub-discussion that started all this: use PUA techniques, some of them, no problem–but don’t give me a line of bullshit about how women ALWAYS say no and play silly buggers and they want you to push past resistance, like TWTTWN did to start me on this tangent. And for the love of all that is holy, don’t tell me that you can change “rape” into “not rape” with apology pancakes and positive bullshit, like TWTTWN did to start me on this tangent.
A PUA is good at starting new relationships.
Now I don’t mean notches on the bed post…as I already mentioned, some of the most famous PUAs are in monogamous relationships.
All I mean is that they are good at making a connection with new people.
That’s all.
Instead of the stale conversations of “what do you do?” and “where are you from?”, and instead of making lots of faux pas, they are charming and playful. And all the while maintaining the “chemistry”.
Connecting in this way with a stranger is hard, for men or women. But it’s more of a disadvantage for men to lack these skills.
Okay. But if you’re truly skilled at connecting with people, “PUA” is something that other people should be calling you. There are plenty of people who excel at striking up relationships. Some may be naturally gifted and some may have had a lot of experience. But they don’t label themselves as PUAs because to do so smacks of self-importance and toolishness.
FTR, I’m not dissing the woman in your anecdote. It just seems like the assumptions furt made about your talents for attracting women and the relative paucity of similar experiences for most men all hinged upon her being a “desirable woman”.
grins I tend to go for the unconventional ones in any event. That particular one was pretty much the platonic ideal of “chick you meet pressed up against the security fence in the front row of a Type O Negative show”.
It seems almost like a tautology to me–obviously she’s desirable in some sense, since I tried to pick her up. I very much doubt he, me, or you share the same scales for what set of traits is ‘desirable’, if that’s what you’re trying to get at.
Oh I agree with this entirely. I don’t identify myself as a PUA in real life, in real life I’m just “a guy who’s good with girls” to most people. The only reason I identify myself as a PUA on here is because I know my views/experiences are VERY different from the vast majority of the people on this board, so identifying as a PUA gives a quick context of how/why my postings are so “out there”. Otherwise people would go “wtf man that’s stupid how could you think that, THIS is how it really works, trust me, I used to be QUITE good with the ladies back in my day”. Saying “I’ve been a PUA for a long time” is a quick way of saying “I’ve interacted with thousands more people than the average person does, I’ve had way more intimate relationships than the average person has had, and as a result I have far more experience with the particular subjects of social interaction/dynamics and attraction than the average person does.”
That’s why I give the people who pooh-pooh my posts as me not understanding how the “real world” works, that same condescending attitude right back at them. Because no, I understand this particular subject very thoroughly…we can do the math and compare but simple logic should tell you that someone who interacts with 20 strangers a weekend minimum for years has more social experience than the wallflower who has a few close friendships but tends to keep to themselves.
I fully admit that I don’t know much about making a marriage work in terms of divying up paying bills and disciplining the children and choosing a house and such, because those aren’t areas I have experience with. But I can explain why when you let yourself become a wishy-washy unattractive man compared to how you were when she met you, your wife stops wanting to fuck you the way you did when you first met, because that’s related to attraction.
No see this is where you’re either being deliberately obtuse or you’re glossing over explanations that don’t fit with the stereotype in your head. This stuff isn’t just for the easy drunk chicks at the bar. These concepts work on the confident well-to-do lawyer chick you stop on the street to ask for the time the same way they work on the drunk go-go dancer up on the speaker at the bar. They work in the middle of the day in a quiet store in the mall the same way they work in the middle of a chaotic nightclub elbow to elbow with people and loud music.
There’s an entire facet of pickup called “Daygame”, because a lot of guys don’t LIKE the bar environments. These guys specifically choose to pick girls up in the daytime, and if you know what you’re doing it’s entirely possible to escalate things in the moment to sex (you start by going for an insta-date, which is just saying “Let’s grab a cup of coffee” after you’ve been chatting for a few minutes, and escalating from there back to your place. The circumstances for this to work are pretty complicated/rare but it’s do-able), or you can just grab a phone number and arrange a date for another time.
Until you let go of your stereotypical cartoon-character version of what pickup entails, you will never understand this stuff, though honestly it doesn’t seem like you really WANT to, which makes it difficult to have a discussion with you.
So you didn’t make eye contact, you didn’t have any friends with you (social proof), you sat hunched over in corner all night instead of having fun, etc.? Like, I’m not being a dick, I’m saying there are really elaborate over-thought PUA concepts, but the core basics are things that everyone does in every interaction that has attraction because they’re instinctual. PUAs simply didn’t develop these instincts growing up or were taught to actively repress them and are learning them later in life or learning to undo the repression.
Again to clarify, I was only saying the psychology makes that possible, it doesn’t make it the default go-to method of getting laid haha I was simply bringing up a discussion point because someone else mentioned the loose definition of what constitutes “rape”, not saying “this is what I do”.
“A man who is modelling certain behaviors to attract people for the purposes of improving his social life.”
This stuff isn’t just or getting laid, it affects all aspects of your life, from dealing with your co-workers/boss, to keeping your marriage solid, to how you handle arranging a movie night for your friends or learning to invite your co-workers out to events. The getting laid part is a huge focus, but that’s mainly because, well, getting laid is fun. It’s also the part that gets blown up the most in the media and leads to stereotypes like you have, because it’s controversial. There’s no Dateline news reports about “Coming up next: Guy learns to be friendly and make new friends so he can arrange a poker night!!! The shocking full story at 11!!”
Agreed. That’s why we learn the ways to push without being needy. We don’t go “Let’s have sex!” “Uh no.” “Please???” “No.” “C’mon can I just touch your boobie?” “No.” “Fine then, RAPE CITY!!!” That’s what desperate frustrated guys who don’t actually get laid do.
Again, agreed. The main reason I get the psuedo-protests is that there’s a lack of comfort because I’m escalating things extremely quickly. It’s perfectly logical. If a woman prefers X amount of comfort before she’s comfortable sleeping with a guy, and I only provide a quarter of whatever X is to her, then logically she’ll protest. Whereas if I provide X or X + a bunch more, there’s no protesting.
If I, as you said, changed my tactics and just got her number and set up a date or two to provide X comfort, it’d be no biggie. But I’m lazy and don’t have a lot of free time, so I like to shoot for the moon, thus I get more resistance that needs to be diffused. This is all very logical, and the entire interaction I’m paying attention to whether she’s actually attracted to me or whether I’m the guy Margin described locking the door behind me telling her she’s “so pretty…(creepy drool)” And I’m also paying attention to how much comfort X is to her…a girl who’s just down for a quick fuck and is attracted to my looks from the start doesn’t need much X, but a sweet innocent virgin girl who’s wary of boys needs a ton of X. This is just calibration.
This is exactly what it is (and it’s a totally understandable view given modern society’s outlook in general). Part of the reason I joined this board was the threads about dating/attraction having silly notions like “it’s just swagger, you either have it or you don’t, that’s all there is to it”. That belief is ridiculous and damaging to the psyche of men who weren’t lucky enough to be brought up in situations that helped them develop confidence.
I fully believe this story, and know many guys who would act exactly like he did. Because they LIKE women, that’s why they express it. But at times that knee-jerk “wow, she’s amazing!” attitude can be unproductive (like managing both male/female troops in your scenario) and someone has to say “hey man, consider this notion” and remind them to tone it down. But they’re coming from a completely different place than the creepy “lock you in a barracks” guy. Like I said when I first joined this thread, there’s a difference between the guys who talk about getting laid and make dubious claims and the ones who ACTUALLY do get laid a lot. The latter fully understand guys like you described.
Yes, that’s exactly it. Women and men who are decent with girls have a hard time grasping how foreign these concepts can be for a lot of guys, because they learned them early on in life and have been doing them naturally for a long time. They have a hard time understanding that a guy could NOT know to make eye contact or to avoid being too suffocatingly interested too early, or that they should SMILE when they approach, etc.
Yep.
That’s where the disconnect is. “I’m a girl and every guy shows interest in me ever since I grew boobs, and I’m surrounded by girls who’ve been raped because men are constantly trying to fuck all of us! …it’s the same for guys isn’t it?” It’s not the same for guys. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2584 - Even just in this thread on the boards here, 19 guys were 30+ and have never been in a relationship (compared to 8 women in that age range). Like, that’s not the majority of guys at all, but saying it’s implausable isn’t based in anything except your own perspective of the world which is lacking in terms of having met guys who don’t succeed in attracting women. My perspective is skewed the other way, I meet a TON of guys who don’t succeed in attracting women. But in the case of “this doesn’t exist”, the fact that these types of guys DO exist logically nullifies your view, is all I’m saying here.
Where did I say that they ALWAYS say no and want you to push past resistance? In fact I’ve expressly stated a number of times that it’s just something that DOES happen, and that it’s related to building comfort and that if you have that comfort it doesn’t really happen, and if it does happen you can learn to tell the difference between token resistance to push through and legitimate “no means no” where you back off. I also said that this type of woman is just the type that is related to this specific thread, and doesn’t represent all types of women and that you have to calibrate to figure out if she’s that type.
But if you’re this outraged over something I’ve said, please quote where you saw it and I’ll be happy to retract it because it’s not what I meant. If I didn’t actually say it was a 100% always situation then an apology for misrepresenting me would be pretty cool of you.
Sure you can. Which part of the summary of my point: “If you offend a person but smooth things over with them afterward, they’ll often forgive you” do you specifically disagree with?
I agree with this.
However, there’s a difference between announcing oneself as a PUA in public life, and doing so on an internet forum. Especially on a thread where PUAs have been depicted as rapists, or, at the least, womanizers out to trick as many women as possible into bed.
btw I should say at this point, I don’t consider myself a PUA. When I said I was more typical of PUAs earlier, I meant something more like the typical practicer of, not a “pro”.
“Offending” a person is not “raping” them. The fact that you could seriously say otherwise indicates to me that you’re not worth discussing the issue with further, as you don’t appear to actually understand the words you’re throwing around.
Rape is technically a very very very extremely offensive action. Remove the massive emotional weight attached to the word and break it down to the basic psychological aspects. If we were discussing “fight or flight” you could lump using aggressive words in with stabbing someone as “fight” for the sake of discussing the psychology.
I understand you’re just swinging at the air full of rage because I don’t cushion what I’m saying with happy bunnies and rainbows, but that doesn’t mean you’re making any actual point except that you can’t seem to rationally discuss an emotional topic.
…but I guess it’s just easier to be insulting. This goes back to where I just make fun of posts that react with insults instead of actually discussing things. Is this really Great Debates? I’ve never been in a debate club but can you really just say “uh ya, I don’t like what I’ve decided you’re probably saying so you’re not worth discussing this with further”?
You also ignored where I asked you to quote me saying what you said I said…but then, that’s because I didn’t actually say it.
So let’s say I, a man, am hanging out with you in your apartment. We’re drinking, and I rape you, despite your protestations that you’re not into it. Then I make you breakfast and act like we’re best friends. You’re going to be cool with that?
If I was into dudes and attracted to you enough to drink alone with you in my apartment and you had a massively strong mental frame and I had a weaker one, then probably.
How do you think a guy who beats his girlfriend keeps her from leaving? He convinces her afterward that it was for her own good, etc. and basically out-frames her. The attraction is there enough and his frame is strong enough that she forgives him and stays with him.
How do you think a girlfriend who cheats on her boyfriend keeps him from leaving? She convinces him afterward that it didn’t mean anything and it “just happened” and that it’s his fault for not blah blah The attraction is there enough and her frame is strong enough that he forgives her and stays with her.
Or are you suggesting abusive relationships where the victim doesn’t hate the person don’t exist?
(again, this is all just a thought experiment for the sake of the thread and pointing out that the definition of “rape” can change depending on the emotions involved in the situation, and it doesn’t apply to everyone in all scenarios (like woodstockbirdybird’s scenario of trying to get in my pants since there’s no initial attraction between us to work with (sorry dude!)), but in the right combination of personalities and attraction, the summary of what exactly happened can be altered.
A dog killing an innocent man is a horrible thing and you would consider that dog a monster, but if you found out afterward that that innocent man was a child rapist who killed a bunch of kids and was heading for his next victim when the dog killed him, you would consider the dog a hero. The event didn’t change, your perspective did.
This is a tangent obviously, but I mean, you just asked how I’d feel about you raping so me I figure I gotta’ respond.
You keep serving up voluminous quantities of skeeviness with a side of creepoidal cluelessness.
If you rape someone and they forgive you afterwards, guess what? You’ve still raped them. This is tautology. If the “offense” magically disappears with the serving of waffles and cuddles, there would be nothing to forgive, now would it?
Let’s play back what you wrote earlier:
See that part in bold? The stuff about anger and emotions? Puzzling how this is supposedly a “not rape” scenario, when the woman in question has not only been protesting the entire time but then erupts with emotions that need to be calmed down. No matter how you try to slice this, this is rape and it’s truly amazing that a grownass man needs to have this spelled out to him. Having to do damage control to ensure that your partner won’t perceive her encounter with you as rape, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not what non-creepy men do.
And it’s certainly not something you should be announcing to the world you’ve had experience with. Consider the possiblity that your posts might end up as Exhibit A if you ever misjudge a real protest as a token protest.
Any just society would nonetheless punish the owner of the dangerous dog to the full extent of the law, because the dog still unlawfully killed. Perspective doesn’t change fact.
It’s also the part that gets blown up the most in the media and leads to stereotypes like you have, because it’s controversial. There’s no Dateline news reports about “Coming up next: Guy learns to be friendly and make new friends so he can arrange a poker night!!! The shocking full story at 11!!”