Is dressing like a slut "asking for it"?

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@you_with_the_face

If you rape someone and they forgive you afterwards, guess what? You’ve still raped them. This is tautology. If the “offense” magically disappears with the serving of waffles and cuddles, there would be nothing to forgive, now would it?

If a couple roleplays a rape fantasy, the spouse being raped forgives the other afterward despite feeling anger/emotions/etc. in the moment. Do you have the same scorn for the raping spouse in that scenario as for an alleyway knife rapist? If not, why not?

Is it the agreed upon consent to the roleplay in advance? What if the girl in the situation says simply “I’d like you to be rough with me” and, while having sex, the guy can tell she’s into what he’s doing and escalates things (without getting official verbal consent at each stage, he can simply read her emotions well) and in the end despite being emotionally drained she cuddles up to him. Do you have the same scorn for him as the alleyway knife rapist? If not, why not?

@you_with_the_face

See that part in bold? The stuff about anger and emotions? Puzzling how this is supposedly a “not rape” scenario, when the woman in question has not only been protesting the entire time but then erupts with emotions that need to be calmed down.

Hate fucks, make-up sex, jealousy sex, really abusive porn, there’s a handful of sexual scenarios that involve anger and emotions in the moment.

@you_with_the_face

Having to do damage control to ensure that your partner won’t perceive her encounter with you as rape, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not what non-creepy men do.

Never said I believe non-creepy men have to do that. I also never said I do this, and I mentioned that repeatedly.

@you_with_the_face

And it’s certainly not something you should be announcing to the world you’ve had experience with. Consider the possiblity that your posts might end up as Exhibit A if you ever misjudge a real protest as a token protest.

Like I said at the top of Page 6, “Like i said, my experience is with “this kind of thing in relation to sex”. (snip) I didn’t say I have sex with unwilling girls and use Jedi mind tricks to get out of a prison sentence, I said the psychology makes that example possible. Are the people who get all high horse on me seriously not able to discuss things from a theoretical view? Or if I talked about how ballet must be hard would you assume I was saying I’m a professional ballerina of 20 years?”

I hope whoever’s using my posts as Exhibit A actually reads them since you clearly don’t before you make accusations.

• TWTTWN

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Zeriel

That doesn’t make them not abusive.

Then would you punish the couple that regularly fights and has angry make-up sex (consentual abuse) the same way you’d punish the guy who beats his wife regularly?

@Zeriel

Any just society would nonetheless punish the owner of the dangerous dog to the full extent of the law, because the dog still unlawfully killed. Perspective doesn’t change fact.

So when are we convicting all our soldiers that kill other human beings in war? Or do circumstances change our perception?

• TWTTWN

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

A rape fantasy involves an actual rape no more than I’d get an MD for playing doctor.

If you don’t understand that, and you’re upset at the way that you’re being misinterpreted all the time, I recommend that you go back to the, like A-B-C fundamentals of what we’re talking about here.

[Zeriel]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

Then would you punish the couple that regularly fights and has angry make-up sex (consentual abuse) the same way you’d punish the guy who beats his wife regularly?

Prior consent to an action is not the same as no consent and forgiveness. If my wife asks me to do a BDSM sex scene, I rightly should not be punished for hitting her with a whip and having sex with her. If she, in the middle of that scene, says “no, stop what you’re doing” (in the context of agreed-upon safewords, before you get all pedantic and shit) and I keep hitting her and fucking her, I rightly should be punished for assault and rape. If I then apologise and make her pancakes, and she forgives me, I then may have nothing to fear from prosecution but I AM STILL A RAPIST. That title attaches when you have sex without positive consent, regardless of whether or not you can talk your way out of her pressing charges on you.

So when are we convicting all our soldiers that kill other human beings in war? Or do circumstances change our perception?

Amazingly, war is one of the many places we allow killing, which is why I specified “unlawful killing”.

However, if you murder a Canadian soldier in cold blood and tomorrow Canada declares war on us, you remain guilty of murder even if tomorrow the circumstances have changed so that you could shoot said soldier with no penalty.

[AlienVessels]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

Are the people who get all high horse on me seriously not able to discuss things from a theoretical view? Or if I talked about how ballet must be hard would you assume I was saying I’m a professional ballerina of 20 years?"

I hope whoever’s using my posts as Exhibit A actually reads them since you clearly don’t before you make accusations.

• TWTTWN

If you constantly have to tell people that what they quoted doesn’t say what they think it says or that their paraphrasing is wrong, you might consider rephrasing what you’re saying.

I’ve spent a good 25 years having to go into businesses and evaluate how work gets done. I’ve come across dozens and dozens of people who thought they were doing it right for decades and weren’t.

Human beings are rarely good judges of their own performance and consequences thereof. To quote Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes), “I don’t need to do a better job, I need better P.R. on the job that I do.”

You’re being judge based on what you write. There are a lot of exceptionally smart people here. Complaining that they’re not reading what you wrote isn’t going to fly.

[you_with_the_face]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

If a couple roleplays a rape fantasy…

Why do you keep jumping to hypotheticals about roleplaying as if that has anything to do with rape? Roleplaying is a consensual activity and more importnantly, doesn’t involve an offense that has to be forgiven like you wrote.

When people roleplay emotions, they’re only pretending. In other words, when you’re roleplaying you don’t have to make pancakes to smooth anything over, because it’s understood that its all in good fun from the start.

Never said I believe non-creepy men have to do that. I also never said I do this, and I mentioned that repeatedly.

You said you have experience with this kind of thing when it comes to sex. If now you’re admitting you’re just spouting theory, you should have never said that you have practical experience with this so matter-of-factly. Don’t be sad because we’ve reached a perfectly reasonable conclusion based on your own words.

At any rate, your repeated suggestions that a rape can be transformed into “not rape” if an aggressor manipulates someone into forgiving them is bizarre enough by itself. This is the kind of self-serving rationalization a rapist would use to pardon his own conduct. So it jarring that you keep posting it as though it’s fact.

I hope whoever’s using my posts as Exhibit A actually reads them since you clearly don’t before you make accusations.

Just like I called it back on page 6. “You’re not reading what I write!” Rest assured that we all read what your wrote and we understand exactly what you’re saying. We might not understand why you’re saying it, since it paints you as a weirdo who brags about walking a tightrope between rape and not-rape, but honestly, we do understand the words coming out of your keyboard.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@you_with_the_face

You said you have experience with this kind of thing when it comes to sex.

Bolding mine. This KIND of thing. I also said in RELATION to sex (kissing a girl despite protests and then winning her feelings over is in relation to sex, etc.). If you’ve had a pet and someone asks you to take care of their dogs you’ve had experience with that kind of thing in relation to taking care of animals. It doesn’t mean you’ve taken care of their dogs. I also have 2nd/3rd hand experience via people I’ve met/seen do this kind of thing.

@you_with_the_face

If now you’re admitting you’re just spouting theory

Here’s me quoting myself all through this thread:

[QUOTE=Me]
I didn’t say I have sex with unwilling girls and use Jedi mind tricks to get out of a prison sentence, I said the psychology makes that example possible.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Me]
(after my story about my friend’s encounter with this kind of thing in relation to sex) I’ve got a bunch of real life examples of this kind of thing which is why I say I have experience with it in regards to sex it that doesn’t mean I’m out there being a rapey puppetmaster.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Me]
Again to clarify, I was only saying the psychology makes that possible, it doesn’t make it the default go-to method of getting laid haha I was simply bringing up a discussion point because someone else mentioned the loose definition of what constitutes “rape”, not saying “this is what I do”.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Me]
(again, this is all just a thought experiment for the sake of the thread
[/QUOTE]

I’ve been saying it over and over and over, not “just now”.

@you_with_the_face

At any rate, your repeated suggestions that a rape can be transformed into “not rape” if an aggressor manipulates someone into forgiving them is bizarre enough by itself.

I’m not saying it’s a good thing, I’m just saying it’s possible. Again I go back to kissing a random girl in the bar. You can label the guy however you want, but if the girl ends up liking him, she’ll view him as forward/ballsy, if she ends up disliking him, she’ll view him as creepy/rapey. That’s just how the psychology works.

• TWTTWN

[you_with_the_face]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

Bolding mine. This KIND of thing. I also said in RELATION to sex (kissing a girl despite protests and then winning her feelings over is in relation to sex, etc.).

Right, of course, totally. Except for the fact that sex does not mean kissing, and a reasonable person would not make that assumption in the context of what you wrote. Your attempt to portray these things as the same thing is a little embarrassing now.

I guess I got you all nervous when I mentioned Exhibit A and stuff, but you are not on trial (at least right now), so you should probably save the Chewbacca defense until the law comes a-knocking. If you stop insulting our intelligence, maybe we won’t harp on your experience claims.

If you’ve had a pet and someone asks you to take care of their dogs you’ve had experience with that kind of thing in relation to taking care of animals. It doesn’t mean you’ve taken care of their dogs.

Desperate comparison. Just let it go, dude. If taking care of some dogs was anywhere close to raping a woman on the badness scale, you best believe I’d make damn sure to make it 100% obvious I wasn’t claiming experience with “this kind of thing”. I certainly wouldn’t continue to prattle on like an expert in dog husbandry either.

I’m not saying it’s a good thing, I’m just saying it’s possible.

No, it’s not possible. If you’re convinced that it is, explain your logic to a judge and see what he/she says. Hey, maybe if you keep walking that tightrope (did we misread this too?..that’s Exhibit B), you just might get that chance.

[Invisible_Chimp]

This thread has gone far away from the OP and lately reads more like a Pitting of TWTTWN(not that he doesn’t deserve it.)

[Pecunium]

TheWhoToTheWhatNow: <i>Really? Where did I say that exactly? You’re very good at putting words in my mouth. I’m using that as an example of why that’s a silly notion. If your view is a black and white “if she says no through the whole thing, it’s rape”, and you (the collective you, not you specifically) are determined to deny there are any shades of gray involved, then you are saying those situations are rape as well. This is very simple logic.</i>

But’s it’s fallacious. You’ve made a false equivalency. In the first situation you have no way to know if the demurrance is real, or not. In the second (BDSM), you do. Because the broad terms, and specific bailing-out triggers were negotiated in advance (and even in a scene/relationship where there is no safeword, the dominant partner has to keep in mind that going outside the bounds will; at the very least, cause the other person to leave).

But you admit you didn’t do that, don’t do that. You count on your perspicacity to “know” when no means “maybe”, and when no “really means no”. Which means you are, at the very least, countanencing near rape; and have almost certainly committed acquaintance rape. I understand why you would want to persuafe people that no doesn’t always mean no. Admitting to being a serial rapist is hard.

But, (and I know you will deny it, and say I don’t understand the complex psychology of women and I’m being some sort of brainwashed idiot), the fact of the matter is, you are advocating (and admitting) to rape.

This is one of those places where Kant’s categorical impertative comes starkly into play.

1: Do nothing that cannot be seen as a rule to be applied to everyone universally. If you think that anyone who can, “figure out what “they” really want” should be allowed to ignore the statement that someone doesn’t want something, and that each person should be able to figure out what people, “really want”, then the first half of the question, “Is is morally right” has been answered.

The other half of the equation is, “Am I treating this person as a means to my ends?”

If both of those things are true (it can be made a universal rule for everyone, and it’s not treating someone else as a means to an end), then it’s a morally acceptable way to behave.

You admit that you are not doing the latter, and so it doesn’t matter that I don’t think you can honestly say you would accept the former.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@you_with_the_face

Right, of course, totally. Except for the fact that sex does not mean kissing, and a reasonable person would not make that assumption in the context of what you wrote.

Sex is just an escalated version of kissing. if the logic is “people react with happiness to positive stimuli” the formula is the same whether it’s a smile for getting a free chocolate bar or jumping for joy at winning the lottery, the lottery is just an escalated version of the chocolate bar.

@you_with_the_face

maybe if you keep walking that tightrope (did we misread this too?..that’s Exhibit B), you just might get that chance.

I didn’t realize walking a tightrope meant falling down one side of it, I thought it meant walking on it like, you know, the words say.

• TWTTWN

[Zeriel]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

Sex is just an escalated version of kissing.

If this were true, you’d answer to “Oedipus”.

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

I didn’t realize walking a tightrope meant falling down one side of it, I thought it meant walking on it like, you know, the words say.

Except when you fall off a tightrope, YOU get hurt; but when you fuck up consent issues, SOMEONE ELSE just got raped. The fact that’s a chance you’re even willing to TALK about willfully getting close to doing so is why you are creepy.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Pecunium

But you admit you didn’t do that, don’t do that.

I have non-verbal consent, and as I’ve said before there’s an actual no that means no in which case we back off, but “we shouldn’t be doing this…(as she keeps making out)” and “we’re not having sex tonight…(as she takes off her shirt)” are not actual no’s.

@Pecunium

and have almost certainly committed acquaintance rape. I understand why you would want to persuafe people that no doesn’t always mean no. Admitting to being a serial rapist is hard.

Hell of a jump you took there to “almost certainly”.

@Pecunium

1: Do nothing that cannot be seen as a rule to be applied to everyone universally. If you think that anyone who can, “figure out what “they” really want” should be allowed to ignore the statement that someone doesn’t want something

Sure, why not? The key is that they can actually figure out what the other person really wants, despite your quotes that imply that’s not possible.

@Pecunium

The other half of the equation is, “Am I treating this person as a means to my ends?”

Nope. Sex is a mutual win/win, has nothing to do with my ends. Soon as you stop seeing sex as something a man takes from a woman that will make sense.

@Pecunium

If both of those things are true (it can be made a universal rule for everyone, and it’s not treating someone else as a means to an end), then it’s a morally acceptable way to behave.

@Pecunium

You admit that you are not doing the latter

I admitted to treating women as a means to my end? Quote, please. Except you can’t, because you made that up.

@Pecunium

and so it doesn’t matter that I don’t think you can honestly say you would accept the former.

Just did. Like I say the key is in actually knowing, being able to read the body language and actions etc accurately. If you think it’s not possible to learn to read body language then I guess books like this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0061438294/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/192-7790899-5536942

…don’t exist. Give it a read, it’s a fascinating book. And even in it’s description he warns against jumping to conclusions with one trait but instead using a cluster of observations, which is what I’m saying when I describe pushing a bit to see if the no is a real one and if it is, backing off.

I think most guys suck at reading nonverbal cues/consent but like I say, it’s very possible/easy/consistent to tell real no’s from token no’s when you know what to look for. The same way people can read fake smiles by looking at the eyes in that “is this smile real or fake?” thread I saw elsewhere on here.

• TWTTWN

P.S. I’m happy to not derail the thread further but I can’t be expected to not respond to people making accusations like this, especially when they’re apparently not reading the important caveats I make regarding when to back off and that I’m extrapolating the logic as a thought experiment (which I’ve said from the start) and not as a play-by-play.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Zeriel

Except when you fall off a tightrope

And if you don’t fall off the tightrope then no one gets hurt. I understand if you don’t believe that’s possible but then there are people who don’t believe it’s possible to do a lot of things that people do, it’s not my fault if you have a limited view. If you don’t believe it’s possible to, i don’t know, have never hung up a picture without dropping it, there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise but it’s not cool to imply that I MUST have dropped a bunch of pictures.

• TWTTWN

[Zeriel]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

And if you don’t fall off the tightrope then no one gets hurt. I understand if you don’t believe that’s possible but then there are people who don’t believe it’s possible to do a lot of things that people do, it’s not my fault if you have a limited view. If you don’t believe it’s possible to, i don’t know, have never hung up a picture without dropping it, there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise but it’s not cool to imply that I MUST have dropped a bunch of pictures.

• TWTTWN

Way to clip the most important bit of my quote: that is, the fact that you’re walking a tightrope wherein if you fall, SOMEONE ELSE gets hurt. You are making the decision for that hypothetical woman that she really means maybe/yes instead of no/not-right-now. The consequences, if you are wrong, are going to primarily fall on someone other than you. That is by definition unethical even if you don’t screw up a single time.

[TheWhoToTheWhatNow]

@Zeriel

Way to clip the most important bit of my quote: that is, the fact that you’re walking a tightrope wherein if you fall, SOMEONE ELSE gets hurt. You are making the decision for that hypothetical woman that she really means maybe/yes instead of no/not-right-now. The consequences, if you are wrong, are going to primarily fall on someone other than you. That is by definition unethical even if you don’t screw up a single time.

[QUOTE=Me]
and as I’ve said before there’s an actual no that means no in which case we back off
[/QUOTE]

We err on the side of caution, despite the accustations that we don’t. For a better analogy than the tightrope, let’s say we walk on the edge of a roof. If we fall on one side, bad consequences (consequences for her, aka rape), fall on the other side, not so bad consequences (consequences for us, aka not getting laid). When you’re walking on the edge you opt to fall onto the roof side instead of over the ledge. That’s why, as I’ve said from the start, you use a bunch of observations and read a lot of cues to decide how far to push things. And if it’s a definate no, you bail onto the roof side.

This is really not a hard concept and it’s why in one of my first posts in this thread I said guys who actually get laid push a bit to make sure it’s a real no and then are cool with backing off and taking things slow because they don’t really care.

I won’t say it’s ethical since that’s a whole nother tangent itself, but not being ethical and being a serial rapist aren’t the same thing.

• TWTTWN

[Idle_Thoughts]

I don’t pit posters very often, but I’ve been following this thread along since the beginning and a certain poster in here is, much like the title of this thread says, “asking for it”.

[Zeriel]

@TheWhoToTheWhatNow

This is really not a hard concept

All of my further responses to you will be in Idle’s thread.

[1fly1time]

tHe question alone is redicules.we all no some chicks like dresaing
one way and some others.a real human being would definitly
Try to see if she is gonna be cool or compadible