Just a comment on this particular one - I think some rapists may well be this guy with the attitude of “but every other girl always wants me so you are obviously not saying what you mean and are not saying no but playing hard to get”. He just can’t comprehend that a woman could spend all night with come, allow him into her house and then NOT want to have sex with him.
A valid point/concern and one that a lot of people probably have, so allow me to elaborate: You’re lumping the guys who are attractive to women with the guys who think they’re attractive to women. Both can run into the situation you described, of not comprehending that a woman wouldn’t want to have sex with him because they believe every woman wants to have sex with him, but the guy who gets laid a lot is just confused by it and thinks the girl is silly in the way you’d think someone was silly if you tried to hand them a million dollars and they refused it, but after a couple offers to find out if they’re actually serious because it’s such a silly notion, he backs off because shit, if you don’t want this million dollars okay it’s no skin off my back someone else will take it ya weirdo.
The guy who doesn’t actually get laid a lot but thinks he SHOULD or deserves it is the one that gets frustrated by her refusal and keeps going past her rejections into the Rape Zone. Usually this is the guy who has every other aspect of his life together (good job, money, good looks, etc.) and is aggressively angry that the girl is too “stupid” to realize what a great catch he is.
The difference in the two attitudes is that the former thinks the girl is silly/goofy/etc. and laughs in his head about it, and the latter thinks the girl is stupid/unappreciative/etc. and gets angry in his head about it.
It’s two VERY different mentalities and the latter is the one you see on TV and movies and episodes of CSI. I’ve spent time around both types of guys.
- TWTTWN
So the majority of men are potential rapists (and the rest, sans PUAs apparently are eligible for the “special” categories of rapist) , but as we see in the first paragraph, the PUA apparently is immune from this defect.
That would be the dog in the discussion.
Bolding and italics mine:
I don’t see where I said this. Why are you putting words in my mouth? A PUA does not necessarily equal a guy who girls love just as a martial artist doesn’t necessarily equal a guy who can handle a fight or protects his loved ones.
Are you trying to derail the thread? Because it’d be nice to participate in a thread for once where I don’t spend 2 pages explaining I didn’t say what you’re arguing I’m saying.
- TWTTWN
Is going up to an ATM at night a justification to be robbed?
Is locking your door but not sealing your house like a vault a justification for someone to knock the door down and ransack you?
Is putting a 12 character password on your bank account instead of a 128 character password a justification for someone hacking in and taking all your money?
If the answer to all these questions is yes, then the answer to your question is yes. And may God have mercy on the world you come from because your fellow citizens won’t.
Otherwise? [/thread]
My apologies. Only the successful ones are immune, apparently.
Since I’ve been warned once about my replies to you, I am very carefully quoting what you said. If you’re only bothered by the italicized text out of what I quoted, please consider it retracted.
yes, people will think you’re asking for it. and yes, it will probably increase your risk of getting raped. and no there is no justification for rape.
What you quoted and how you summarized it are two different things. The guy who women like that I was describing could just be a naturally charismatic guy. And the frustrated guy who hates women could be a PUA. You’re the one adding the classifications to what I write so that you can pick a fight and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t because, really, it’s completely uncalled for.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have to go rape some slutty-dressed girls. 
- TWTTWN
I have always thought that if pickup skills were learned by more men, it would drastically cut down on rape and especially on fighting. Most men who get into drunken fights seem to be idiots who don’t know how to get laid (but think they do.) In general, a lot of problems in society seem to come down to sexual frustration, actually.
<disclaimer>Like any other sane person, I don’t believe that anything anyone wears can justify any behaviour, let alone one of the most evil acts a person can commit</disclaimer>
I think in the noise the point may be lost that many young women don’t quite appreciate the effect of dressing a certain way.
Men and women’s sexuality works quite differently.
Now, because of the historical baggage, many people will assume that I’m saying men are animals or women don’t like sex. Far from it.
And, just to head off another potential argument, let say any differences are entirely caused by culture.
But anyway, it’s different. Men are much more visual, we can become aroused very quickly, and, frankly, most men are in a state of sexual scarcity.
So into this reality you throw in women’s fashion that is, if anything, more sexy than seeing a naked woman (because it covers up very little and accentuates certain features) and the effect is very powerful.
That’s all. I don’t know if it puts a woman more in risk of being attacked.
The victim has already been “picked up”.
There is never any justification for rape.
That said, there IS a difference between justification and responsibility or blame in such a situation. Not for the crime itself for which the attacker bears the entirety of the responsibility, but for placing his or herself into a situation that they* know* opens themselves up to the possibility of victimization. Justification exculpates the perpetrator of their actions. Nothing can justify rape.
I remeber an epiosde of The Montel Williams Show that featured a 25 year old who was imprisoned for impregnating a 10 year old (no, that is not a typ. a TEN year old).
He said it was her fault for "dressing like Brittany Spears. Montel told him that he didn’t care how she dressed, there was no way she could “pull it out of your pants.”
This makes it sound like there’s a moral quality to a decision to take on a risk to oneself, in itself. Like people are doing something wrong if they don’t always choose, to the very best of their ability, the safest alternative for themselves.
I don’t see that.
Responding before reading other folks’ responses.
I’m male. If I go to a woman’s apartment with every intention of shedding my clothes and having hot steamy sex with her, and have done all manners of things to convey that intention to her, but then when we’re in her apartment she says something that’s kind of a turnoff to me, hey, I consider myself to have the right to say “uh uh, changed my mind”, put my clothes back on, and leave. She doesn’t get to say “No fucking way, you’re obligated at this point”.
Females have the same right. She can dress in the sluttiest possible way, proposition me and promise me 100 orgasms by sunrise, put my hand into her crotch, drag me to her bed and get me aroused to an 80° angle and panting, and then say “naaah, on second thought I don’t wanna”. I don’t get to say “No fucking way, bitch, you’re obligated at this point.” She isn’t.
This conversation is stupid because “dressing like a slut” is indefinable. Is it wearing tight jeans? Tight sweater? Plunging neckline? High heels? Bare midriff? Skirt or dress above the knees? A bikini? Some assholes are going to find all these as slutty and others not.
Women can take proper precautions to minimize their chance of rape, but it’s all behavior based not attire based.
With other risks, we do suggest that people are foolish if they take the risks unnecessarily. Someone who rock-climbs without safety equipment, someone who has unprotected sex with multiple strangers, someone who drives on the highway at 120 mph, someone that gets in a car driven by someone who’s drunk–society often has contempt for them, right?
That said, I don’t think wearing revealing clothes is in the same camp. First, it serves an important cultural function for a lot of women. Second, nobody’s really provided any evidence that wearing revealing clothing increases the risk of rape at all, much less increases it by a major margin.
If, however, there’s strong evidence that wearing revealing clothing under specific circumstances dramatically increases the risk of rape, I think it’d be obvious that people should think carefully before wearing revealing clothing under those circumstances, just like they should think carefully before getting in a car driven by someone who’s drunk. If something awful befalls the skimpy-clothing-wearer- or the rider-with-a-drunk-driver, neither the rapist nor the drunk driver has any mitigating factor, but that wouldn’t make the SCW or the RwaDD person’s actions wise.
Sure, but as long as more assholes find one of them slutty than the other, then it’s safer to dress in the way that as few people find slutty as possible. (If we assume for the moment that there is in fact a correlation there, which seems logical but afaik unproven.)
I can tell women to avoid certain parts of town during certain parts of the day, avoid using drugs (including alcohol) in excess, and being alone to lessen their chances of rape.
If you want tell women to not dress slutty to lessen their chance of rape, then you have to define what dressing slutty is. How much skin or how tight does the outfit have to be to be considered slutty by most people? I can’t define it. Even if you believe dressing slutty does in fact heighten a woman’s chances of rape, it’s impractical to advise against it. Sluttiness is in the eye of the beholder.
I’m honestly not sure what point you’re trying to make. I also can’t define it, but I know it when I see it (sometimes) (obviously there are gray areas, etc).
Are you telling me that when you hear “X was dressed like a slut” you literally have zero mental image what that might mean? Or if someone shows you two pictures and says “which one of these women is dressed more like a slut” you would honestly never have any idea?
(Honestly, I’m starting to feel uncomfortable about using the word “slut” so much, but I guess that’s what I get for posting in this thread in the first place.)