Is dressing like a slut "asking for it"?

But the difference is that no one doubts that the pirates killed the missionaries. I’ve never heard someone justify rape by saying she deserved it. I’ve only heard people (well, heard of people) saying that there was no rape because the woman consented. That’s entirely different.

And lest anyone be confused by my comments in the locked thread, I wasn’t calling it ridiculous that a rape victim would be hurt by “she deserved it”. I was calling it ridiculous that people in Dallas would feel the need to protest a rude comment by a Toronto cop. These people are completely unconnected to the issue and are marching out of RO, because this particular issue is like shooting fish in a barrel. Saying they’re motivated by the Toronto incident is as naive as saying that people take off of work on a Monday in October in order to reflect upon Christopher Columbus…in both cases, it’s just an excuse to party.

Ever notice how quickly the subject of rape can turn average people into armchair criminologists? I have. We don’t engage in this pattern of speculation when it comes to murderers, but it’s interesting how easy it is to “relate” to someone who rapes.

Here’s a question: Does anyone here even know anyone who has raped someone? And when I say “know”, I mean know them well enough to know their personality, their relationship history with women, their likes and dislikes, their outlook on life, etc. Statistically it seems likely that at least one Doper would know a rapist on this level, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone personally attest to this.
In the absence of data showing that clothing is independently associated with the likelihood of being raped, I don’t see how anyone can even posit that provocative clothing is even a risk factor, let alone “asking for it”. Drawing linkages between these two is to assume that what turns on the average, rape-averse person also turns on the average rapist. I think that assumption is unwarranted. Most rapists probably have a lot more going on upstairs besides “can’t take no for an answer”, so treating them identically to non-rapists except for that pesky little detail sounds unreasonable to me.

Our culture of blaming rape victims is so insiduous that I don’t think most of us are conscious of it. If someone were to say “My daughter was raped last night”, most people’s first impulse would to be sympathetic and non-judgemental.

But when extra yet irrelevant details are added, sympathy changes to scrutinity as blame starts getting shifted.

“My daughter was raped last night after coming home from a party.”

Suddenly there’s an interrogation. How old is she? Why was she out so late? Did she go to the party alone? How drunk did she get? How does she know she didn’t actually didn’t say yes if she’d been drinking? How flirty was she being with other guys? Why was she being so flirty with other guys? Why did she let that guy walk her home instead of calling a cab?

Then the judgemental handicapping starts. She shouldn’t have been out so late. If she hadn’t been so flirty and accepted so many drinks from him, the guy wouldn’t have been led on. She should not have gone to that party by herself. She was foolish to be drunk around strangers. I’m not saying she was asking for it, but she bears some responsibility for putting herself at risk.

The Just World Fallacy at its finest. This is how society rolls.

This goes against studies that show that a large number of men suggest that they would be willing to commit rape if they were guaranteed they’d never be caught. And it violates Occam’s Razor: why posit a whole different set of sexual turn-ons for rapists from non-rapists when it’s unnecessary to posit that? All you need to posit is that acquaintance rapists consider consent less important than do decent human beings; that’s a much smaller entity to posit.

I think it’s likely that men have a distorted, romanticized idea of what rape is based on fantasy. Sort of like teenage girls wanting to have a baby, without realizing all of the pain and aggravation that babies entail. It’s possible that they say they are willing to rape because they are ignorant and think rape looks like Scarlet O’Hara getting swept away by Rhett Butler.

Even if this wasn’t the case and men have an accurate understanding of rape, the mere fact that rapists aren’t inhibited by law suggests they are governed by a different set of rules and values than non-rapists aren’t. If a guy gets off on violence and the thrill of the taking, then any woman that looks vulnerable–regardless of what she is wearing–is at risk. So fixating on what clothes she’s wearing would be a mistake.

I’m not positing that they’re different (even though it’s indisputable that they are different). I’m only saying that the assumption that they are the same is unwarranted in the absence of evidence. People who murder their children Susan Smith-style aren’t psychologically comparable to women who don’t . Likewise, men who rape aren’t necessarily comparable to men who don’t. I see them as two distinct populations.

Dressing like a slut is something that obviously exists, but is Ill-defined at best. I believe whether or not dressing like a slut makes a woman more likely to be raped is moot because we can’t define exactly what dressing like a slut is except that we know it when we see it. Telling a woman not to dress like a slut is not good as practical advise unless we see specifically what she plans to wear.

We can offer practical advice to women which may lower their chances of being raped, but what to wear or not to wear isn’t part of that. I think we are better served talking about those things than this which is why I categorized this conversation as stupid.

However, I reject the idea that dressing sluttily has much effect on the chances of being raped anyway. Children, the elderly, and men also get raped. Are they too dressing sluttily? I think educating men what rape is and why it’s wrong would be better than concerning ourselves with or trying to control what women wear.

In some countries dressing like a slut means showing your face in public. And these women may be targets for rape, but only because women who break with social convention are less likely to have the community’s support behind them. So they can be rape and they’ll be no retribution

Women who dress provocatively according to American values may fall victim to same the mode of thinking. When we see a provocatively dressed woman, often we assume that we’re looking at someone with low self-esteem. Someone that no one cares about. A vulnerable person, in other words. An easy target. Put the same woman in jeans and T-shirt, and next time maybe it won’t be her clothes that will be the tipoff for her vulnerability. Maybe it will be how she walks. Or carries herself. She could still be raped. The only difference is that we won’t have something as convenient has slutty clothes to blame it on.

I’m not disagreeing with that. Certainly, if you said to me “MaxTheVool, here’s 100 million dollars, please spend it as you think best to reduce the number of rapes that occur in the US”, I would spend $0 of it on not-dressing-like-a-slut-awareness-month. But since when has “hey, this isn’t the most pressing facet of topic X that should be addressed” stopped us from having an SDMB debate?

Again, no one is claiming there’s a one-to-one correspondence between dressing sluttily and being raped. And also again, I’m not saying that I even know there IS a correspondence of any sort. What I’m saying (and I believe LHOD is also, to put words in his mouth) is that if there is a correspondence, which is certainly not prima facie ridiculous, then discussing it is a sensible and reasonable thing to do, and doing so does not suddenly mean that one is automatically “blaming the victim” in some absolute and unforgivable fashion. Note, however, that saying “here are some trends and statistics you should be aware of so you can be aware of possible consequences, however unlikely, of your decisions” is very different from saying “hey, you were just raped yesterday? well, what were you wearing, huh?”.

How does one advocate risk-reducing behaviors (whatever they are; let’s assume there’s some evidence) in a way that doesn’t automatically translate into blame for victims who might not have assiduously followed all those recommendations?

Dr. Bernes wrote a book called “Games People Play” in 1984 ?, required reading at Lakehead University.

In this book was the game, “rapo”.

It was not a game played by both men and women.

The games goes like this.

Its a game of manipulation.

You ‘play’ to push buttons, to get the other person to act or react. When that person has been manipulated into the action, you have won the game.

(in the example given to start this thread, if you are an outside third party, you benefit from the chaos- the benefactor of say, war, or legal proceedings…)

I was just thinking this. For other crimes it is common to give advice to reduce risk (keep doors and windows locked, don’t have valuables on display, etc), but then it’s also (sadly) common to at least partially blame the victim for such crimes.

I think the main reason why rape is different is not actually because it’s a much more serious crime. It’s because the advice is just targeted at one gender, and so seems sexist or repressive.
IMO there’s nothing inherently repressive about the advice, and the absence of such advice will not stop certain people from blaming the victim anyway.

And for this and other reasons I think the slut walks thing is misguided.

IIRC, what I said is that I doubt there’s much evidence that women who dress provocatively are at a higher risk for rape. What I did not say is all these other things. I do not believe rape is always about power or is a political act. I think rapists probably rape for a lot of different reasons, but most of them are probably just selfish opportunistic assholes.

And where I come from that’s also called terrorism: using rape to terrorize women into submission to the soul-sucking tyranny of “social convention”.

At what point do we in the “enlightened” West mature to the point of “she can wear whatever she wants; no simply means no”?

The fact that we’re here debating this says something is horribly wrong with the high and mighty Western culture… to say nothing of everywhere else.

Well that is what people are saying. The title of this thread I think is a straw man.

Generally people are saying no means no, and you can wear whatever you like. But be aware that if you dress very sexily you might be putting yourself more at risk.

Just like we might advise people of both genders not to walk through a dangerous neighbourhood at night alone. Such advice does not prohibit anyone from making that choice.

While a woman cannot be blamed
for a crime committed upon her by another,
her desire should be to act responsibly and
to stay safe. If someone steals my unlocked
bicycle, I am a victim of theft. Yet, shouldn’t
I be ashamed for behaving unwisely, if I didn’t
take care to secure my property beforehand?

Women get raped all the time, even when they’re acting responsibly. So when we overemphasize the role of women’s behavior in their own victimization, the end result is “she was irresponsible in some way” becomes the default assumption. Rape victims are then left having to prove to a skeptical audience that they didn’t do anything to provoke the attack.

Women’s bodies aren’t comparable to objects that can be locked up. A rapist doesn’t have to work any harder to rape a woman wearing jeans versus a short skirt, while a lock does constitute a barrier to a thief. As long as a rapist has a weapon or physical strength on his side, plus opportunity, extra layers of fabric aren’t going to stand in his way.

I’ve been the recipient of unwanted sexual contact from strangers at least two times in my life. The first time I was 13 or 14, wearing jeans and a long-sleeved T-shirt, walking through a crowd behind my father. Now it’s obvious to me that I did nothing to provoke this groping except for the crime of being there. The perv (I saw his face and he knew exactly what he was doing) wanted to grope a woman, and I was simply within reach. It was a crime of opportunity.

Now if I were wearing a mini-skirt instead of the ugly ass stone-washed jeans that I’d been wearing, the sad thing is the clarity I have now regarding that incident would be more murky. Did he grope me because I was simply there, or would I have been “asking for it” because of what I was wearing? It is only because I know what happened in actuality that I know the truth. I would have been groped in a skirt for the exact same reason I was groped in jeans: Because I was in close proximity to someone who was determined to grope.

We are conditioned to view rapists as normal men that simply go rogue one night in a fit of unrestrained lust and passion. I don’t see them as normal men, though. I see them the same way I view that perv who felt me up in that crowd.

Aha, I see a trend here with this thread, the Dianetics thread, and the one about the end of the world next Saturday. Perhaps nothing should be considered “Debate” (and especially not a “Great” one) unless the poster is willing to take a side and defend it, or at least ask a question with at least two sides of substance and suggest what some of those arguments might be.

I see a problem with that advice that goes far beyond whether it’s correct or not.

The problem is that it means we encourage people to cede certain times and territories to predators.

The most obvious flaw in such advice is that said thieves and hoodlums will consequentially start attacking in broad daylight.

I cannot overstate my agreement with the women’s “Take Back the Night” concept. You do not surrender “dangerous neighborhoods at night” to the bad elements; because in short order they will conquer that and with all their prey having fled, they’ll pursue them into the day and into their own abodes.

This is why I totally agree with the Slut Walk thing. Take your rights back now, before you start getting forced to wear a Burqa… and still get raped. The next time there’s a Slut Walk, I’m donating money to support it if money’s needed.

The inadvertent impression created by the people who think slutty outfits provoke rape is that men are uncontrollable and irresponsible, that rape of this type is such a risk that it must influence womens’ clothing choices at all times, and that this is the sole form of rape that is common. The idea that ‘slutty’ clothes provoke men to rape means that one cannot argue that feminists are wrong about their most cynical notions of men. You’re basically arguing that men lose it when they see a miniskirt, that they judge women in this fashion, and that despite all these flaws, it’s somehow…womens’ fault. The post one or two above me said that women have to accept some of the blame.

I’m not even going to bother arguing that most rapes are acquaintance rapes between people known to one another, which destroys the slutty dressing argument. It would be akin to arguing that the world is round. The obsession with a tiny minority of rapes indicates that people have not informed themselves about rape and simply want to blame women for what men do to them.

The only common denominator in rape is the rapist.

There is that, too. Didn’t think of it that way.

Basic facts of life. I am not sure how much more simply you can put this.

I suppose we can look forward to people whining that women must take up the slack and protect themselves, as they themselves do indeed tell their sons to not commit rape, that they can do no more, when----oh, I don’t know, here’s a wild and crazy idea-----one could not make excuses for rapists by—in effect---- blaming rape on slutty clothes. Such an excuse—as I mentioned—ignores reality, in which many obviously non-sluttily-dressed girls and women get raped, including babies and old women. In effect, one is saying that a skirt committed the rape and the man was practically an unwilling participant. The idea that rape is provoked out of men carries with it a hint of the man being unwilling till unreasonably aroused and excited by…a skirt. I guess one can now understand why people fall in love with cars, vacuum cleaners, and according to one article I read, the Berlin Wall. If men are indeed aroused by short skirts, then they should avail themselves of such items on their own time and with their own money and spare women the horror of a violent, invasive attack.

So the question that we should be asking—if indeed we wish to learn about rape-----is why people invent strawwomen like sluts, who exert a force on a man equivalent to that of a pointed weapon. Confronted with a woman in a mini skirt, men apparently are ensnared in some kind of tractor beam, which they are helpless to resist, and which arouses them and makes them commit a kind of rape which is not the most common form. Yet it is the one which many people want to discuss.

"Slut" is a derogatory term,  indicating a woman who is free with her favors. This is based, of course, on a viewpoint of women as having value only if they're chaste. The more sexual partners a woman has, therefore, the less she is worth.  Such a belief is incompatible with protestations of a desire for womens' safety and well being, as the first level of wellbeing is to promote the truth about women. By focusing obsessively on 'sluts' one is demonstrating outmoded beliefs which need to be changed. 

One would think, in fact, that men would approve of such women, because if they do have sex with many men, they might be lucky enough to be one of them. Yet there seems to be an offshoot of the original ‘slut’ belief that one should only pursue women of high sexual status, because they are worth more points if they put up more resistance and have had fewer partners, thus making one a member of a select few. This does not recognize that women are human beings and are fully entitled to enjoy sex under whatever terms they enjoy.

The belief that men are uncontrollable sexual beasts, if true, should result in increased incarceration and supervision. It has not. Furthermore, it has been proven over and over again that rapists target the vulnerable. A rapist therefore will pass on a woman who is in fact dressed sluttily because she might very well look and project power, pride, and strength in favor of a woman covered to the ankles, wrists and throat because she looks vulnerable, distracted, ill, small-sized, etc., etc.

If one wishes to study bank robbery, one does not take out a dollar bill and study it. One studies bank robbers. Rape remains a unique crime in that some people feel---based on the belief that the woman (as noted above) has little value, and that is not a worthy reason to disrupt a man's life with an accusation or even a trial.  There is also the belief that rape victims lie to protect their virtue, again based on the belief that that is their only value to society. If this belief were aggressively targeted---say, by people who claim to wish to fight ignorance---and the double standard were also aggressively attacked, such lies (in whatever number they occur) would be reduced because the need to pose as a virginal figure would disappear, as women would be judged---like men----on the content of their character and not on the length of the hem.  

The sexual uncontrollably male myth does men no favors because it appears to make rape more likely in general, not just in the type of case that is the subject of this thread. It tends to argue the men do in fact commit many rapes, that rape victims are telling the truth, and that men should be subjected to much more supervision and skepticism. This notion is usually opposed by people who claim it is unjust to regard men with suspicion, even though this myth is often promoted by men themselves. Yet it is manifestly more unjust to tell women that they must live in fear, adjust their lives down to the most intimate particular so that men can freely rape women----and then blame it on hemlines. As men represent a greater proportion of those in power in just about every field, they are in a prime position to change these unjust customs and conditions, and doing so would result in fewer rapes, fewer false rape accusations, and more sex for anyone. Yet it would also liberate women from fear, so one has to wonder why this has not been on anyone’s agenda. Also, it would free men from unrealistic and excessively demanding sexual standards, as well as gender stereotypes. Again, this is to everyone’s benefit.