The broader context of the events at Evergreen:
How French “intellectuals” ruined the West: postmodernism and its impact, explained
It’s no coincidence that Weinstein is a science professor.
And more here on postmodernism and how it relates to what’s going on here:
Evergreen State and the Battle for Modernity
No, actual intimidation gets the campus closed down and then finally reopened with state police guarding it. Weird how you’re looking at intimidation so selectively.
The difficulty with sanctioning these students, I believe, is that the basic idea–students should feel free to challenge professors and to work for justice, even when it involves difficult confrontations–is a very good idea. Some of these students behaved fine, even the protesting ones. Others of the protesting students way crossed the line.
I absolutely think the ones who crossed the line (any who threatened a professor–I’ve still not heard tape of that, but stipulate it’s out there–and any who engaged in shitty intimidating mockery instead of discussion) should be sanctioned. But I’m not really worried about the idea of students protesting peacefully, as many were, even if I think their cause is a bad one.
It’d be interesting to compare this to the guy who secretly recorded his professor ranting about Trump and tried to get her fired. I’m on the professor’s side in both cases, and I think it’s shitty for students to try to get professors fired over expressions of political belief. When students break codes of conduct in the process, I’m okay with sanctioning them for it. But I’m not upset that students are trying to right what they see as ills in society.
I hope you don’t think I’m referring to you here, but virtually every time some members of a group behave badly, apologists will emphasize that the vast majority of the group are decent folks.
Which generally is true, but not important. What’s relevant is how other members of the group respond to the sleazebags in their midst.
In the case of Evergreen State College, other members of the group such as the administration respond by cringing, apologizing, and pandering to their tantrums. Not a response, IMO, calculated to discourage sleazebag-ousity.
Regards,
Shodan
It would be helpful if some people here weren’t asserting that a large percentage of us are a certain way, in a hyperbolic, hysterical sort of way. Then maybe we wouldn’t feel compelled to defend ourselves.
I’ve been giving this a lot of thought, particularly the liberal attitudes that drove me off social media, and it felt like, at the time, everybody had gone crazy. But in retrospect, it was maybe three or four people just spamming my feed with garbage. And I overgeneralized based on that, which is easy to do, but intellectually lazy.
So true!
This sentiment is flawed because the people you have categorized into a group probably do not see themselves as part of the group you’ve defined for them.
Is it possible for the left to look any stupider?
That big fat crazy woman - actually gets PAID?
It’s worth noting that this board is full of people that conservatives might label ‘‘liberal elite’’ and very few, if any of us, have rushed to defend the students’ actions.
I think we’re all pretty grossed out by their behavior.
Which leaves us with only one thing left to debate: Is this representative of most, or a significant portion, of liberals?
It is my view that the extremists on both sides are dominating the mainstream media, but that doesn’t mean they are an accurate representation of the majority. It’s that extremism generates clicks, and likes, and shares. We, as a culture, are addicted to being self-righteously pissed off, and the media exploits that shamelessly.
Really? The remainder of the student body, faculty and administration at Evergreen do not see themselves as part of/representatives of Evergreen?
Hard to see how posters here are part of an all-encompassing group that must apologize for the actions of students at that college, but those who are actually there arguably have some obligation to speak out for decent behavior and encourage penalties for those who transgress.
Wow! Helen Pluckrose said that?! About the only way I could be more impressed would involve having some idea who she was.
The sort of things described in that article is why I nearly rolled my eyes off their sockets when Trump won and everyone and their dog on the Left started whining about the “Post-Truth” world created by the Right.
The postmodern folks in that article who believe that it is oppressive to say that obesity is linked to health problems, are in for a rude awakening one day when they discover that things such as insulin resistance, heart disease, atherosclerosis, and diabetes do not, in fact, abide by postmodern views.
When I was a student I did not in any way see myself as a representative of the college. Why should I? I merely attended school there. Next thing you’re going to tell me is that I should consider myself a representative of Wal-mart.
Now, I went to Boise State University in Idaho, so my school wasn’t exactly a hotbed of liberal activism. About the only sort of ‘political movements’ I recall were in support of the football team. And if you were to imply that I should be expected to either support or defend the football fans’ behavior just because I attended there, you’d get a dirty look at best. I was not responsible for the actions of the other students at BSU, so I don’t see why you’d think students at Evergreen would feel responsible for the actions of loons in their midst.
The thing is, this stuff is so preposterous that many more “conventional” older liberals who aren’t exposed to modern leftist academia simply don’t believe that this is not a parody, that this kind of po-mo relativism even with regard to the hard sciences is now mainstream in the humanities. Everything is a social construct - not just roles and power relationships in society (which obviously are), but the fucking mass of the electron. That’s why there is so much tension with the STEM side of academia.
And yet, the greatest irony of postmodernism seems to be lost on the ultra-ironic postmodernists.
I read both of these articles. Fascinating stuff. I know very little about postmodern thought, so it was educational. A lot about the argument is problematic, though. In the first, Pluckrose makes a vast number of sweeping assertions while providing zero evidence for them… or even, examples, really. So I’m not really sure how to evaluate her argument. In fact, she kind of undermines her own argument in that specific act of negligence.
In the second, in addition to completely misrepresenting what happened at Evergreen, the author doesn’t seem to understand what he’s arguing against. His definition of ‘mansplaining,’ for example, is inaccurate.
You’re talking with someone who has spent a great deal of time with these so-called postmodernist professors, in their classrooms, hanging out with my so-called postmodern colleagues, and I have noticed a rift forming between me and them, but I also don’t buy this narrative pushed by the right because I’ve lived with these people, and I understand their motivations and their reasoning far better than either of the writers of these articles. I’ve made the same arguments as my peers have at times; maybe I still would, I don’t really know because my own ideology is shifting. The bottom line is, as a classical Liberal with postmodern influences it appears to me that these writers don’t have as firm a grasp on their subject as they think they do. I graduated with my MSW in 2011 - surely not that much has changed in five years?
Weinstein sounds like one interesting dude, though.
[QUOTE=Riemann]
The thing is, this stuff is so preposterous that many more “conventional” older liberals who aren’t exposed to modern leftist academia simply don’t believe that this is not a parody, that this kind of po-mo relativism even with regard to the hard sciences is now mainstream in the humanities. Everything is a social construct - not just roles and power relationships in society (which obviously are), but the fucking mass of the electron. That’s why there is so much tension with the STEM side of academia.
[/QUOTE]
Would you mind providing some concrete examples, please? The articles provided virtually none.
ETA: If you have any recommended reading on this, let me know. It’s truly fascinating.
I’m not sure that I understand what kind of “evidence” you expect here. She’s gives an account and critique of po-mo thought. Are you asking what evidence there is that these kind of po-mo beliefs are widespread in academia?
Such as what? So far as I’m aware, everything that he describes in the first few paragraphs is accurate. The College Fix is obviously not a trustworthy source without confirmation, but the existence of a vigilante group wandering the campus with baseball bats has been confirmed - the college issued a statement asking them to desist.
I’m not sure what you mean here. Neither of the authors of those articles are right wing, and I’m certainly not. The debate that concerns me is within the left: between what might be described as between classical liberalism (including a respect for reason and evidence, the tradition that extends back to the Enlightenment, if you like) and postmodernist relativism and the more extreme forms of identity politics.
Jerry Coyne (evolutionary biologist at U.Chicago) follows this stuff.
Search for the tags “freedom of expression”, “Authoritarian Left”, “Regressive Left”, “college students behaving badly”, “Colleges acting badly”
Another sweeping change in an academic environment is greeted with alarm and foreboding. And so it goes.
Why, these days, its near impossible to find a university or college than teaches a physics program that adheres to rock-solid Newtonian insight! The tried-and-true common sense is drowned in a wave of “relativity” and something about dead cats! Liberal lefties love to fuzz up our vision with doubt, as if there were no reliable certainties. Not even the sublime principles of the Free Market (Blessings and peace be upon It)! Not since that snotty little pencil-necked Keynes!
A bath, a haircut and a job, all they need! Just like Bob Hope and Spiro Agnew presciently pointed out about a previous generation of raggedy ass rabble!