I’m sure there are some liberals who freak out over every kind of sexual expression, but I wouldn’t say it’s a widespread problem. Most liberals I know base issues like this on considerations of consent. I am one of them. I really don’t give a damn what consenting adults do, and I think it’s the height of patronizing to imply that women who choose to sexualize themselves don’t know what they really want because patriarchy. I won’t discount the very real power dynamics at play in a lot of cases (there can be a thin line between sexualization and exploitation in many areas of sex work), but it’s all about context. I don’t think it’s right to tell another person how they should feel about their own experiences.
The liberals I know are really sexually liberal and think of conservatives as uptight prudes. The idea that liberals are behind the abolition of consensual sexual acts seems a bit farfetched to me.
To you.
As I stated in the other sexual harassment thread,
By the way, I’ve been hit on by people I’m not interested in, and managed just fine. I’ve also been sexually harassed, and I suspect most women are pretty well-versed in the difference.
I think we are trying to make similar points in slightly different ways. I truly believe your cases were very real and damaging. I don’t believe that the hundreds of sorority girls that I knew that flashed for beads were damaged in any way. They knew exactly what they were getting into and chose to do it. Most of them talked about it beforehand. The beads themselves are just a scorekeeping tool. Better titties and more flashing = better beads. There isn’t much harm to it and it is all consensual.
Likewise, I knew perfectly well that the highest paid New Orleans newscaster at the time was hitting on me really hard every time that I went out with him and his friends including making blatant sexual proposals when others weren’t looking just to see my reaction. I just laughed at the time but that is exactly the type of thing people are getting busted for now. That isn’t something I would ever do but I don’t think it is the same category as someone that has been truly sexually abused.
I didn’t mind the so-called harassment because he and his friends paid for dozens of nights out and knew celebrities that joined us but it wasn’t so funny a few years later when he was caught trying to bribe a 15 year old into sex with cocaine and went to prison for it. The latter is closer to where I draw the line.
Maybe I should have seen the (blatant) warning signs but I didn’t think it was a big deal as long as it was just kept to college students like me and a couple of my friends. I could take sexual harassment for free nights on the town as long as I didn’t have to do anything. They pinched my butt and grabbed my crotch a few times just to see how I would react but I didn’t consider that something I would think about later that night, let alone years later because there was no damage. I am still a lot more pissed off about some bullying I received in high school.
Other people seem to think very differently. Then again, some women get pissed off when someone comments on their appearance and others are world class strippers and love it. People differ in their attitudes to that sort of thing.
What you’re describing crosses the line into sexual assault, not sexual harassment (which is verbal.) What they did to you was illegal and immoral regardless of how it impacted you as an individual. I am not about to tell you how to feel about it, just that what they did was not acceptable.
It probably didn’t upset you so much because of your past experiences (or lack thereof.) My point being, a lot of women have been sexually assaulted in the past and are much more likely to have a genuine traumatic reaction to behavior like that. It’s like, if someone said something to you that was reminiscent of the bullying you experienced, and tapped into that visceral anger or helplessness or whatever you went through, and then they told you it was no big deal and just a casual comment, you probably wouldn’t agree.
I agree that consensually flashing your tits for beads is in no way sexual harassment. That said, I think that the probability of sexual harassment (and sexual assault) occurring in an environment like Mardi Gras is probably pretty high. I don’t feel compelled to abolish it or anything.
I think one of the main issues is that women in particular, based on personal experience, generally think of sexual harassment as a precursor to sexual assault. Sexual harassment often leads to sexual assault. That’s why it’s so upsetting to many. Because implicit in every single instance is the question, ''How far is this gonna go? Is it going to be like <fill in sexual trauma here> or will I get out of this one?" It’s essentially priming.
Individual responses will always vary. I’ve seen women claim they don’t want strange men in public to smile at them or say hello and that kind of stuff seems absurd to me. Some women enjoy getting catcalled. For the purposes of this discussion, I’m talking about unwelcome sexually derogatory language that makes the target feel uncomfortable or threatened. In the other thread there is a debate about whether asking a cashier (as a customer) at Dunkin Donuts if they will fuck you constitutes sexual harassment. I said yes. But there are gradations of sexual harassment. I wouldn’t make the claim that that scenario is on par with getting five of your friends to follow that woman home at night screaming obscenities at her. One will likely be far more upsetting than the other. That doesn’t mean the milder instance should be tolerated.
I found some of the “article” (just a collection of memes from random nobodies…for fuck’s sake) patronizing, but especially the one about Mardi Gras.
We can decide if we want to show our breasts for beads or not. It’s purely manufactured outrage to think that we’re somehow “forced” into showing our breasts for, what, a string of plastic worth $0.02?
I danced topless at a club locally, out on the floor, and a few people told me I shouldn’t have, because all i was doing was “reinforcing the patriarchy” and “objectifying all women, everywhere” and other bullshit. No, it’s other women who want to control my expression who are reinforcing the patriarchy. I danced topless because I felt like it. No one gave me anything, no one asked me, no one pressured me. I did it just because.
Poisoning your own post from the very first line is not productive. It’s like deciding to masturbate with a small saguaro cactus and thinking it’s a good idea.
The “I am the world and my experiences alone set the standard for humanity” complex.
How do you think we become victims in the first place? How does it start? Put that ol’ thinking cap on…
Or Christianity, or conservatism, or liberalism, or basically any philosophical approach toward anything.
Someone once remarked on these boards ‘‘You feminists can’t make up your minds!’’ as if we all exist in collective lockstep and have exactly the same view of every issue. It’s really very silly to imagine that we would.
Agreed… I jumped into this thread because I saw a central question missing in these posts, one that I see fairly often in local news due to Denver’s proximity to The People’s Republic of Boulder:
Should women being topless be illegal? Why? What about mammary glands is inherently sexual, and what, if anything, is the harm in allowing women the same freedom that men have to display their bare chests if they so choose?
Is showing your tits necessarily demeaning? While I’ve not participated in the whole “show me your tits” thing, I can imagine myself doing so. I’m just not all that bothered by nudity, and I think sexuality is fun. If I flashed some guy on the street (let’s pretend my husband wouldn’t mind)… so what? They’re just boobs.
I dunno. I feel like the attitude that any time a woman does something sexual it’s because she was intimidated into doing so by a man is more demeaning than flashing your tits at a crowd.
At the opposite end of the exposure spectrum, there was controversy in France a few years back when the government banned the wearing of burqas. The supposed justification was that wearing a burqa was demeaning to women. Many people, including myself, argued that telling a woman that she wasn’t allowed to wear a burqa was more demeaning than the wearing of a burqa.
Not really a relevant issue. A person doesn’t have to want to personally do something in order to believe that people should have the right to choose whether or not to do it.
You have no business deciding for others what is or is not demeaning to them. The law has even less business deciding that - women (and men, obviously) do demeaning things in public for all kinds of stupid reasons all the time. Yeah, public exposure is usually illegal, but that has very little bearing on this argument; you can do plenty of “demeaning” things in public (demeaning by whose standard?) that are perfectly legal at any given time. And, for what it’s worth, if the implication here is that female mayors, sheriffs, commanders, etc. would lead to a crackdown on what you consider “demeaning” behavior, I see that as a very good argument against women occupying those positions. (I don’t believe that that is what would happen, because most people who aren’t hardline conservative puritans don’t have too much of a problem with Mardi Gras as it exists right now.)
When we see feminists doing things for feminism in order to appeal to other feminists, can we maybe not blame those things on the patriarchy? Is there literally any expression of gender politics that can’t be blamed on the patriarchy? Cuz it really seems like if you can blame this on the patriarchy, then you can blame literally anything on the patriarchy.
