Well I’m quite sure Osami would agree with you. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. However, military action for the purpose of eradication, deterrence and the protection of a nation by a nation certainly is not against Christian philosophy IMHO.
A solution? What is solved by forgiveness? The perpetrator (organization/government of course the individuals are dead) is still out there, likely indifferent to offered forgiveness, and there is no reason to believe that it will cease these actions.
Also, IIRC, Jewish law states only the victim can forgive an offense. I don’t happen to be Jewish, but, the idea made sense to me. So, yes, I’m all for forgiveness, let us hurry these monsters to their victims so they can be forgiven. Unless, you believe that only God can forgive; same response will work.
Forgiveness and universal harmony are the real victory.
Hiyruu,
Please explain what practical significance “forgiveness and universal harmony” have in relation to preventing the tragedies on Sept. 11 from recurring?
And this was one of those things. May all of those involved in hatching this evil plot upon the world die extremely slow deaths.
We need to resolve the root of the problem, instead of trimming the branches. We need to engage in worldwide therapy.
…and not having a lot to do with GD in many months, regarding the OP here are my mild thoughts. They may better be served in another forum as what I am about to say is more opinion than anything because it’s what I think and believe in my life. I may not return to this thread so poopoo me or back me up as I don’t have the heart at the moment to back up what I have to say. Again, this is more my opinion than anything.
First off, any life taken is a sad event. Whether that life is taken in a drug deal gone bad, an armed robbery or in this case thousands have lost their lives in a single event. What I am stressing here is that in a single homocide or a homocidal terrorist who takes out hundreds or thousands of lives, it’s not a place to make judgement on the scope of the disaster. One murder is no less worse than another that causes many lives taken at one time.
I had heard of many (not all, okay just many) in the OKC event that gave McVeigh some sense of forgiveness. It may not have been a complete let go of what they felt in their hearts, meaning utter and complete forgiveness but some were okay in the fact they decided they didn’t want to return the hate that McVeigh apparently felt. He committed a horrific act for that time. Today we realize it can be many times worse. But people didn’t let him resolve to accept the fact that freedom is a part of our lives and it should be taken away because of one event. They didn’t want him to die, they, in essence, forgave the people.
What makes a person forgive? I think the understanding that some just can’t see past their own noses and know that there are 6 billion different ideas on what makes the world right. Not one of those ideas are right or wrong. I think it’s knowing that those people couldn’t be that horrible of beings but somehow, someway, they got involved in a group of people that can only “preach” pain and anger. Many can’t see past that and with many events in history it teaches us that we are filled with people with horrific ideas as to what the world should be. Call it mob mentality if you’d like. Things going back to the Salem Witch Trials, the Civil War, etc…
I think of certain hate groups that are in our society. They kill people because of skin color, religion or because of whatever crazy idea has been planted in their heads.
Looking at hate, I hate hate, it’s probably the only thing in this world I hate. Hate can do crazy things to what could be a normal person. It makes you see things you don’t see in daily life. An idea suddenly becomes a way to live your life. A thought of an enemy brings out something that most people would never consider, murder.
Forgiveness is a hard thing, especially when dealing with the death of a loved one, your neighbor and/or a friend. But forgiveness is understanding the limitations of the person that instituted an unspeakable act or wrong against us. One should never fear to forgive for retribution of those around you. But forgive because you know in your heart it’s right. If you know in your heart that the person has been mislead or that an idea was wrongly planted, then you are a stronger person by that. If you still feel hate, think about why you hate, why you can’t forgive. It says a lot to what kind of person you are if you can be completely honest with your own sel.
Now, forgiveness may not come today, next week or next year but if your heart says to forgive please don’t resist that feeling. Forgiveness, in my eyes, takes a very strong person to know and feel that God (whoever one’s God is) is behind us and not against us. God isn’t everything we like to think God is but God is something to consider when you consider forgiving another for their actions.
We all woke up last Tuesday morning thinking our lives would be the same. It changed and maybe in some odd (scuse me here) fucked up way, it may have changed many for the better.
Only forgive if you can find it in your heart. If you can’t than that is okay too. I personally find some semblance of forgiving the people that did this. Why? Because they felt they were fighting a war against what they hate. Hate is not in my book but I can understand it. Hate does terrible things to people and their actions. I don’t condone, one bit what they did but in the scheme of hate, I think they felt they were doing what they felt was the most appropriate thing at that time. The WTC tragedy will forever stick out in our minds as a horrific thing but usually, in my understanding, that forgiveness also follows healing, pain, some anger and a lot of sceptisism.
I mourn for the souls lost. I am saddened by it all. I think about the people who will have to go on without the comfort of their loved one by their side. But I can’t, in my heart of hearts, allow me to let the sadness turn to anger, then turn to hate. I have to remain with the sadness and hope that my heart will bring in more foregiving thoughts. As horrible as the events were to us all I can’t let that pain and anger to rule my life. Therefore I am willing to let in some type of foregiving or allowing for me to try to understand why this happened.
Hiyruu,
Sounds good to me. Thanks for explaining.
Stoid you are talking in circles … again.
And yet forgiveness is an option? How is it possible to forgive the “inexcusable and unjustifiable?”
In my opinion the most poignant comment yet in this thread has not even been addressed by those willing to grant forgiveness. Back on page one, TWTCommish said
Even Jesus preached this. He also told us those who do not beg forgiveness for their sins, shall burn.
TWTCommish
I would humbly submit that (although I am not a true believer) Jesus wasn’t giving us carte blanche to do the burning.
- I appreciate your concerns, but I fail to see what the problem is here, since;
- If the information is “readily available to everyone,” then it has already been broadcast in a public forum of some sort. The information on HIV and vCJD/TSE research, for example, is available at the Red Cross website.
- I didn’t obtain or reveal any details about anything–only that such research takes place, which can be discovered in about thirty seconds on Google. As I said, the Red Cross info is available at their website, it’s fairly common knowledge that the CDC keeps virulent agents at their facilities, and the Ft. Detrick home page informs us that: “As an Army Medicine Installation we are home to the United States Army Medical Research and Materiel Command (MRMC), the National Cancer Institute (NCI) and 36 other tenant organizations. The primary missions include biomedical research and development, medical materiel management and global telecommunications.” Biomedical R&D, by necessity, implies biohazard containment labs of some level.
- The only “sensitive material” I might have revealed is that the CDC had deployed investigators, if not for the fact that that information is contained in a press release at the HHS site. So,
- In short, nothing that I have mentioned, including my father’s position at the Red Cross, coule be remotely considered “confidential.”
The “point” was to demonstrate to Stoid that there are, within an hour’s drive from where there was a deliberate terrorist attack, two facilities conducting biomedical research, some of it on dangerous, transmissable diseases.
Hebrews 11 seems to indicate that believers are empowered to (and in fact were rewarded) to mete out justice.
- And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets–
- who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, received promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
- quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
There are also many Old Testament passages which deal with a secular justice and the rewards for doing so.
Uncle Beer: Hmm… I thought this was the argument the terrorists were using. Am I wrong? Are they not saying they are acting as their god’s instruments and meting out his justice? If so, why is it OK for us to use ‘our’ deity’s directives to mount a war, when it’s not OK for them to do so?
Upon further consideration, I would submit that the words in the Bible (or any holy book) can be interpreted by anyone to back up any position. And as such, are an invalid argument for ANY position.
(Checking Eutychus’s Loser Guide to see if this is going to gain me Loser points…)
I would add that Biblical verses are also an invalid argument AGAINST any position as well.
Right.
Did I use one?
First of all, Unclebeer, I never talked in circles to begin with, so I can hardly be doing so again. Secondly, I have not championed forgiveness in this thread.
Finally, even if I had, there is nothing “circular” about doing so. Just because something cannot be excused or justified, it does not follow that it cannot be forgiven.
As for not granting forgiveness until it is asked for, I think that’s missing the point entirely. One can fogive without such forgiveness wiping the slate clean for the fogiven, you know. It’s more about wiping the forgiver’s slate clean.
And could you provide the quotes where Jesus preaches * against * forgiveness, please? This is a revelation to me.
stoid
A big fat ** WELCOME ** ! to ya, LifeOnWry! If your contributions to this thread are any indication, I think you are going to be a delightful addition to our little corner of the web.
stoid
Not at all. But I still felt I had to throw my statement in to head off certain possible arguments – not your argument.
Ahh, OK. Thanks. Scared me for a minute. I sometimes type in my sleep, and I’ve been known to contradict myself at times too. Thought maybe I was about to have to eat a heapin’ helpin’ of crow.
By the by:
I meant Fenris’s Loser guide.
My mistake. Re-reading this thread more thoroughly, I find you champion no position. At least none you are willing to share. Which leaves me to wonder why you’re even posting to this topic.
Explain, please. I’m afraid I don’t see it that way. Offering forgiveness for an act seems to me to mean that you’ve found some reason, i.e. a justification or excuse, for that person’s behavior. If you’ve not found a rationale for an act, what can be the basis for forgiveness? Even if it is simply because you feel a person’s morals weren’t up to the test, you’ve found a justification or excuse and thereby a basis for forgiveness. This is what I meant when I say you are arguing circularly. You’ve claimed these acts are “completely inexcusable and unjustifiable.” Of course you’ve neatly evaded circularity by claiming not to champion forgiveness. Again, this leaves me to wonder why you are posting to this thread.
Huh? You, as usual, have lost me.
Nor have I made myself clear to you, apparently (although others understood it). This is not what I attempted to say at all. I’m saying Jesus preached that forgiveness is not possible until one asks for it. Is this not the entire raison d’être of the Catholic confessional?
Perhaps. I’m not familiar with the teachings of Islamic fundamentalism. I do not what the Sharia or the Hadith have to say about murder. Or how the jihad is consecrated by Allah.
At any rate, since no group seems to be stepping forward to claim responsiblility for these acts, I gonna simply assume they are acts of war, or criminal acts. I’m not willing to interpret the meaning of these acts without the perpetrators telling us what they are supposed to mean; I’ve heard no claims that this is part of the jihad. And since that is the case, I don’t see any basis at all for forgiveness.
God/Allah & Jesus/Muhammad don’t even enter the equation. I posted what I did merely to continue the conversation down a path already begun. Hell, I’m an atheist anyway. No religious excuse or justification is likely to have any sway with me.