I never thought of it that way. I probably use the SDMB in the same way. I can share my thoughts and participate in discussions without the stress that comes from engaging in social reciprocity.
Why would this be unhealthy? It’s not praiseworthy because I’m not really spreading social goodwill around, and that can upset people who want to be friends with me. But if I’m receiving the “good side” of relationships from therapists or message boards, then what else do I need?
Yes, but they were all dropped once staying in contact became too much of an effort. Which means I hung out with them while we shared a class in College, but after the class was over I never contacted them again. Or we lived nearby for a while, but once they moved I didn’t try to contact them again.
I think the OP should watch the movie “I Love You Man”.
That happens. People maintain different levels of friendship and friendships tend to have a natural ebb and flow.
Because we don’t really care. Not to be mean, but most of us don’t. We just come here to argue about whatever topic strikes our fancy at the moment or share our thoughts. I have real friends and family offline who I would prefer to hang out with.
Also I think the internet has a way of validating the wrong thing. Spending too much time on this board, you might start to believe that being a weird, social recluse is “normal” or even “desirable”. And you aren’t really learning real skills for hanging out with real people IRL.
Wait … I don’t have anyone that cares about me besides my family (I’m not even sure about the cat). That does indeed suck. I’m a little embarrassed that this wasn’t apparent to me before, and I had to start this thread to figure it out. Sigh
Monstro, now I’m curious, do you have anyone (besides family) that cares about you? Do you want someone like that in your life?
Wow. Really? I never thought of her as being rude or insensitive. Maybe a tad bit needy and insecure, but she never placed any burdens on me (like asking me to babysit or run errands or anything like that). I never thought her asking if she could one day come over to my place was invasive. It seemed like a natural inquiry since whenever we visited each other outside of school, it was at her place. Why wouldn’t she want to see my place? And the party wasn’t over-the-top. Just unexpected niceness. I don’t think she expected anything in return, but my panicked brain just thought she did.
In regards to the fellow you referenced, I think I blew all of that out of proportion. He emailed me this past week for the first time since the “stealth” date, and it was all strictly business. So the mini-breakdown I had was totally unnecessary.
I appreciate your assurances. Perhaps you’re right and I’m not as weird as I think I am (or perhaps you’re as weird as I am :)). But I can’t help but see that my life is full of those kinds of stories, from as far back as when I was a little girl and would choose to stay inside during recess, just to get away from the vagaries of socializing. Or, just recently I abandoned this “friend” I house-sat for because her house was infested with fleas and I felt like she should have warned me before I got there. People have told me that it’s possible she didn’t know about the fleas, but I don’t bleeping care. I had assigned myself to her in a secret attempt to bond with someone (therapy homework), and it simply didn’t work. The fleas really are just an excuse. I’ve been trying to connect my whole life it seems, and now I have reached a point where I have accepted that the problem is me and only me. I’ve encountered so many different people in my life, from real assholes to pure saints, that it can ONLY be me.
Lakai sounds like he’s had some experiences like mine. I don’t know if he’s tried as hard as I have, but it doesn’t seem like he’s never experienced the company of others.
I don’t give a rat’s ass what people think about me going to a therapist. And I’m sorry for being all aggressive and stuff, but it’s NOT like I’m paying a hooker. What an insulting thing to say, for both my doctor and me. She’s been in practice for 30 years and picks and chooses her patients. She doesn’t have a sliding scale (or at least advertise one), but she chooses to see me for practically nothing. Why? I haven’t the faintest clue, other than what she told me: she enjoys watching my progress. I’m getting something meaningful out of our relationship, yes, but it ain’t one-sided. If it is, she’s a really good actress. And a saint too. Why is her office decorated with my artwork if I’m just another “trick” to her?
I don’t know what you think therapy is, but it’s not like she spends the hour holding my hand and telling me how good I am. We have argued (not with loud voices, but challenging each other nonetheless). I have even told her that I wish she were dead. She has had numerous times when she could have fired my broke ass. If she were a mere “hooker”, she would have.
I’m well aware that my therapist is a professional and not a “true” friend. And? Should I lower my head in shame because of it? I didn’t set out for her to be a proxy friend; it just happened. And while it’s happening, I can learn some things. So?
No, I don’t have anyone outside of my family who cares about me. If I disappeared tomorrow, a couple of coworkers would wring their hands about it. But I doubt anyone would be forming search parties for me out in the woods. I wouldn’t even get a shout-out on Nancy Grace :).
I’m going to be honest, Lakai and say I really don’t know if I want someone to care. I used to think I didn’t, but–and this is going to sound really lame–last year, when I had to have oral surgery, this view quivered. The doctor wanted to pull out all four wisdom teeth, which would have required anasthesia. He and his nurse spent a long time trying to get me to come up with a name of someone who could pick me up afterwards. I couldn’t think of anyone. Not. A. Soul. My twin sister would have done it…if she hadn’t been living hundreds of miles away. The same with my parents and my other siblings. I didn’t trust any of my coworkers enough to burden them with that kind of responsibility (they would have had to have sat there in the waiting room for an indefinite amount of time in addition to driving me home AND attending me for two hours afterwards). It was the first time in my life when I realized, “Hey. Being alone SUCKS!”
Because I couldn’t give them any names (and man, was that embarrassing!), the doctor could only pull out two of my wisdom teeth, using only a sedative. Which was fine, since only one was decayed anyway. But it occurred to me that I didn’t have a plan if all four of my teeth had been jacked up. Or, what if I had broken a leg or bursted an appendix? These things happen all the time. When I presented these queries to my hooker–I mean, my therapist–she said she would be my emergency contact until I found someone else, and that she would have picked me up from the oral surgeon’s office if I had only asked. But I knew that wouldn’t have been right. It would have been pragmatic and she would have been very sweet, but it wouldn’t have been right to ask those things from my psychologist.
So I have to say, Lakai, I still really don’t know. If you have someone who cares for you, then (in my crazy mind) you’re obligated to care for them. And I just can’t imagine that I could ever be a member of this normal, everyday kind of relationship, as strange as that may seem. But I also know that it’s a good thing to have, so that’s why I haven’t given up completely on forming a trusting relationship–which is different than an intimate one, IMHO.
So that we are on the same page with our definitions, to me an intimate relationship and a trusting one are the same thing. I wasn’t using the word intimate to describe a sexual relationship.
It sounded like you were talking about not wanting all relationships earlier. Now it looks like we’re on the same page with regards to some kind of close relationship with someone who cares about us.
I bet if you tell your [del]hooker[/del] therapist that you want to have a relationship with someone who cares about you, then she might even drop the schizoid diagnosis.
I don’t really see those things as that rude either. Inviting yourself over is rude, yes, but expressing an interest in going to someone else’s house isn’t necessarily that big a deal if they’ve been over to your place several times. And it doesn’t sound like they were all that casual–it seems like they were pretty good friends by the time she threwmonstro the party.
To me, a trusting relationship is different than an intimate one, even a non-sexual one. An intimate is someone who you would feel comfortable telling secrets to. An intimate knows your true personality and self. You can express your full range of emotional responses with an intimate and not feel embarrassed. And vice versa.
A trusted individual is just that. Someone you trust. They’re someone who you’re more than just friendly with, but there’s still a side to you that they aren’t privy to. You might share some minor secrets with them, like where you hide your spare housekey, but you’re not going to tell them about the time you were molested at sleep-away camp or anything like that. A trusted friend is someone who you’d feel comfortable calling if you got stranded on the side of the road. And if they got stranded, you wouldn’t feel bent out of shape helping them out. But they aren’t your BFF in any shape or form.
To be clear, both individuals are friends. But an intimate friend is connected to you more on an emotional level, while a trusted individual is connected to you based on shared interests and would be dependable in times of need.
As an example, that woman who I “dumped” with all the fleas? I tried to make her my trusted friend. She makes her living running a small organic garden, and solicits volunteers. For a year, I made it my “project” to volunteer as much as possible for her–to become her “trusted”. I weeded and planted, fed chickens and gathered eggs. I even helped her clean her house one time. For free! All the while, I listened to her gab on about politics, new-agey things that went right over my head, family drama, boyfriend drama, trying-to-get-more-money drama. Some times I put in my two cents, but she did most of the communication. And it wasn’t all work. We went to the movies once, and she took me to the independent radio station where she volunteered. She also always gave me chocolate and peanut butter ice cream as a reward for helping her.
I kept waiting for bonds to form between us–some modicum of caring and trust. Perhaps she cared about and trusted me…she certainly trusted me enough to watch over her house and livelihood! But I didn’t feel anything from her except that feeling you get when you’re being used and not getting anything–tangible or intangible–in return. So eventually I gave up. I feel guilty for abandoning someone yet again, but I do not miss her. Even though–besides the ambush-with-fleas thing–she was a nice person. I met her at a Quaker meeting house. I have also given up on that as well, mainly because I don’t want to see her.
Perhaps if I had stuck it out longer, we would have developed a trusting relationship, where I would have felt comfortable calling her up and asking for help. Then we could have moved on to becoming intimates. But after a year of hard work and a ton a flea bites, it just wasn’t happening and I was tired of waiting.
All I said was I don’t know what I would do if I fell down the stairs and broke my leg. I wouldn’t say that’s exactly yearning for a friend, but more of a recognition that being alone does have major downsides. But even the schizoidest schizoid knows that.
I don’t know what I want, and I’ve told her this. I’ve told her that I don’t want a friend, and yet I recognize the (pragmatic) value of having one. So I feel ambivalent about the whole thing. I don’t think that makes me non-schizoid. In fact, ambivalence is quite the schizoid trait.
I don’t think expressing an interest is rude at all. However it seems that she did not take no for an answer, as monstro felt compelled to lie in order to put her off.
“No.” is a complete sentence. No one should press you for reasons, if they have any social skills at all, once you’ve said, “no” or even “I really prefer to meet at a coffee shop/the library/etc, if going to your place doesn’t work.”
Monstro is either incredibly smooth at covering up the fact that social interactions provoke anxiety, or her friend lacked the social skills to perceive her discomfort and back away to a comfortable level. I find the latter to be far more likely. People who have powerful unmet social needs will overlook a hell of a lot, and will ignore a lot of what they do observe, to fulfill those needs.
I think there is also supposed to be a warm and fuzzy feeling involved when you know someone cares about you. It might be like taking a lot of cold medicine, or it might not.
Honestly, I am very skeptical of the schizoid personality disorder diagnosis because of how easily it can be used by someone with an avoidant attachment style to rationalize their anti-social behavior.
However, you are intelligent enough that I trust you were very cautious before accepting that diagnosis, even thought you still don’t have me convinced. If you remember, I was skeptical in your “Ask the woman with schizoid personality disorder” thread as well.
“Asocial” behavior, you mean. Anti-social is bad psycho killer. Asocial is what we are.
Back in the day, schizoid and avoidant PDs were melded together. It was only in the DSM-IV that they, along with schizotypal personality, were teased apart. Which, I think, goes to show that they aren’t easy to distinguish and that all three share similarities.
However, I don’t know why schizoidism is so inconceivable to you. Can you conceive of the opposite extreme? Someone who always has to have a huge swath of friends, be the constant center of attention, plays the drama queen, filled with manic energy, and very sexually promiscuous? I can. In fact, I just described my older sister–who, after learning about my diagnosis and read up on PDs, thought perhaps she could be my polar PD opposite (histrionic). Now how the two of us ended up being in the same family, I have NO idea. Schizoidism, IMHO, is basically extreme (argurably, pathological) introversion. It’s really not much more complicated than that, IMHO.
That’s not to say that there aren’t avoidant tendencies in schizoids, or that there aren’t avoidants who try to pass themselves off as schizoids because it’s easier for one to say they don’t care than for them to admit they do. I think such people exist. I just don’t think they are me, or necessarily you.
Yes, and I don’t know why.
To be fair to you, there hasn’t been a single day since I was diagnosed when I haven’t had doubts. Maybe I’m not schizoid…maybe I’m normal and I just need to have a label to make myself feel better about myself. Maybe I’ve got Asperger’s and my doctors just don’t recognize it. Maybe chronic depression has robbed me of all desires and social skills, and now that the depression is gone, I can become “normal” but I just don’t know it yet. Maybe I’m an avoidant and I just think being schizoid is cooler. Thoughts like these constantly run through my head. But then I look at people when I’m out on the street, running my vending table. Everyone’s paired up as lovers or friends, it seems. I’ve never asked myself, “Now why can’t I be them?” Or, “Wonder what it would be like to have someone like that in my life?” Or, “Wonder what it feels like being them, all smiley-faced and stuff?” I’m not even curious about how different my life could be because I can’t even imagine a different life. I can’t imagine being lonely. Can you? If you can, I certainly don’t envy you. It seems like it would be a horrible feeling.
Last week my dear sister opened up and revealed to me heartsickness about a long-distance lover who she missed deeply. I felt great sympathy for her tears and wanted so badly to cheer her up. It was only after the fact, after a day or so, that I realized I didn’t even ask her a single question about her boyfriend. What does he look like? What kind of work does he do? How often do they see each other, talk to one another? Where and how did they meet? It’s like I’m too stupid to put myself in her shoes and get a glimspe of her life, for just a second, so that I might feel empathy for a change. AND SHE’S MY TWIN! Well, you learn and you live. Next time, I’ll remember.
So yeah, I don’t know. Maybe I’m not schizoid. Maybe I’m nothing. It doesn’t matter what I “am”. All that matters is to keep experiencing things, because experiences make up life. Apologies, I’m not philosophical enough to come up with anything deeper than that.
It’s not the schizoidism that I don’t understand. It’s that I don’t think that you’re a schizoid based on what you’ve posted.
I don’t know everything about you, so it’s likely that I’m missing some important details. But everything you’ve posted so far seems to match what I go through with people, and my therapist doesn’t think I’m schizoid. We never discussed the official diagnosis, but whenever I bring up my indifference to pursuing relationships she tells me it’s because I’ve never had a good one.
If you’ve really experienced good relationships, and were still indifferent to them, then I guess that diagnosis is right for you. But there is always the problem that since you never enjoyed a relationship, how can you tell you had a good relationship that you were indifferent to?
It matters if you’re a schizoid because if that’s true then you can give up on looking for relationships. What would be the point?
I keep bringing up pragmatism for a reason. I’m getting older, and each day that passes I realize how lucky I am that I haven’t hit disaster. One day I might be that “I’ve fallen and can’t get up!” lady. Do I want to die like that? Or do I want to be able to call on SOMEONE who can help me up and take me to the hospital.
When I was depressed, I didn’t care. I wanted to die. Now that I’m not depressed, I can kinda see the importance of not dying in the most painful, humiliating way. You dig?
Schizoids are not totally lacking in reason. It’s perfectly rational to see that relationships can be potentially useful, even if they are relationships that are devoid of emotion.
All my trials and errors with people were my way of trying to be normal. To be “nice”. To do what everyone else seems to take for granted. My therapist is starting to realize that I need to work more on accepting myself than connecting with others, since the failure with the latter seems to be impeding the former. And I’m SO relieved because I’m exhausted trying to do things that don’t seem natural.
I would question your therapist about what she would consider a schizoid to be, just for curiousity’s sake (for instance, she may be more experienced with avoidants than schizoids, so she may be seeing you through that lens). How are you set emotionally? Do you feel like a normal guy who just likes being alone? Or do you feel like you have emotional difficulties as well? Because if you do and your therapist isn’t pointing them out to you, then I would definitely question her diagnosis.
Name a time and place. I’ll bring my therapist and you bring yours. You can pick the weapons. Winner gets to call the diagnosis.
For practical purposes, you’d have to look for someone who hates relationships as much as you do, but is smart enough to see their practical value in preventing death.
That’s what I’ve been trying to do (just replace “preventing death” with “networking”). So far everyone I’ve met seems to want the social reciprocity that goes with a normal friendship. Maybe you’ll have better luck.
I don’ t know. Asking someone “Will you rescue me in case I’ve fallen and can’t get up, but otherwise stay the hell away from me?” is not a good way of picking up friends.
But I totally understand the social reciprocity thing. I like petting the cute little puppy (superficial interactions), but I don’t like playing with a big boisterious, slobbery dog (a real friendship). In my experience, if you pet the cute little puppy too long he’ll latch on to you and won’t let go. That’s the piece that bothers me with developing relationships.
But maybe I’ll grow up. One day.
Good luck with your journey, Lakai. This has been an interesting conversation.
I am not trying to be mean here but to be honest Lakai it sounds like either A) you are emotionally stunted in your growth or B) you are missing a part of your brain that most humans have or C) you have some type of condition like Asperger’s syndrome.
You sound like the social version of a sociopath.
Perhaps it doesn’t matter if you are functional and fine with it. Just know that people expect real intimacy, caring and friendship to be reciprocated and that yes, it is often something that you have to put stressful effort into to cultivate. For most people, it is worth it overall.
I’m standing by my claim that you haven’t figured out how to identify the right type of personality to be friends with; the type of person who is perceptive to and respects your emotional boundaries.
I, myself, would be perfectly happy to have your spare set of keys, feed your cats, and drive you to the dentist, without ever once asking you how you felt about your mother (or caring how you felt about your mother) or expecting you to care about my bullshit – as long as I could expect you to have my back in the same way. Maybe in 10 or 20 years of that, we might grow to be friends. Or not. Either way, it’s fine with me.
It sounds like you’ve never met anyone like that. All your “I tried to make friends with X and failed, I am obviously unable to make a connection” stories, sound like people I could not tolerate myself for more than 10 minutes. People can be “nice” in the sense of well-intentioned yet be extremely, extremely annoying.
I know. And perhaps I’m being too hard on myself. But it’s not like I’ve lived an isolated life, or that I’m particularly young and just haven’t met enough people. I know the difference between “nice and extremely annoying” and “nice and friendly, socially put together, would make a good friend.” I know how to avoid the former. They’re not so hard to detect after a while. I’ve met my share of both characters, and it’s messed up that it doesn’t seem to matter which type of person they are. I fail at connecting with both.
It’s indifference, not lack of experience. I don’t want to work at relationships because I simply don’t care enough about other people besides a very small few. Even the most laid-back friendships require reciprocity, caring, and empathy. I can do reciprocity because it’s simply balancing an equation. I’ll buy you lunch since you bought me lunch last time. Or I’ll buy you a birthday present because you bought me a birthday present. But caring and empathy are emotional components that I do not seem to possess in strong quantities. I can fake them, but inside I feel rotten because I know it’s just an act.
I’m not sociopathic. I know right from wrong. But it’s just awfully hard for me to love for some reason. And I don’t know why because it’s not like I’ve been abused or anything.
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I have to stop talking about this. I’m afraid I’ll start hating myself again.
