A question about relationships.

(my apologies if this is the wrong forum)
I was lurking around the boards for a bit, just wasting time, and then I read this:

(http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=338165)

So I decide to make this post, and reveal way too much about myself, but what does it matter? You’ll never know me.

To start things off, I have never had a “romantic relationship”. Why not? Well, the answer is simple, “Who am I to intrude on another?” It would be quite arrogant of me to assume that I am entitled to enter into circles I was not expressly invited to. To give an example, in high school, if I saw some people I knew, I would wait until they invited me to join them, I would never, ever, join them uninvited.

Needless to say, that did not bode well for the future relationships. I have never gone on a date, never even said more than five words to a girl, except those who I was friends with. Of course, who would want to risk straining a friendship by asking the other person out? None of this was helped, of course, by the fact that I look down upon anything remotely stylish, so much so that I grew long hair (few inches past my shoulders) never had it cut, never combed it, and an unkempt beard.

Oh, I’m getting sidetracked. My question to you, the forum going community, is this:

Given what I’ve written, can the the following quote still be true?

The rational part of me says that I don’t know what I’m missing, so why should I care? But yet…
An insane part of me still desires it.

Sorry for the double post, but this did not seem to belong with the first post…and I came up with it later :wink:

I guess the real question, whether or not I should give in to my rational part and truly abandon all hope, is a question I cannot expect anyone but myself to answer. But still, I’m interested in hearing opinions

Nilor, dear. Social skills, dating skills, are just like any other skills. The good news is; at your age it is a matter of mere weeks, maybe months to aquire those skills.

Your post reminded me of myself. I was a loner for much of my childhood. I had a few unpleasant experiences with kids, balanced by too few pleasant experiences. Kids can be cruel, and some people stay kids until high-school graduation. I told myself: “Okay, if this is how people are, I prefer the company of a few trusted friends, my pets, and my books and my ideas. Going out in public is a chore, and I will avoid it as much as possible”.

Understandably, but onfortunately, I developed the attitude to go with it. I told myself I WAS a loner, by choice and by nature. I told myself most people were “the other”. “They” were different, and sometimes, I felt, way “better” then me or far, far below me. (of course, nature geeksm and gothics, etc, were my kind too, but normal people? No.) It was kind of an interesting, dramatic problem to have, being an “other” in a world of “normals”. :slight_smile:

Of course, the problem was much smaller, and much more mundane and ordinarily human. I just had had too little guidance in aquiring social skills when I was a kid. I had been left to myself too much. The result was a kid that WAS a little weird, sometimes arrogant and bitchy, and sometimes too insecure. I was a good person, but my awkwardness may have made me unpleasant at times. To top it all, I did not invite others to approach me, nor did I approach others.
My opinions were intelligent and original, but, I just had trouble communicating them well. (unlike you, I must say, your OP is very well written!).
So, during childhood and aolescence, I was in a vicious circle of withdrawing - little social succes - making up reasons why I should withdraw “they won’t understand me anyway, I’ve got nothing to expect from them”, etc.

If you recognize anything in me, here’s what I did about it.

I read books on social skills and manners. Not self-help books, because there wasn’t anything fundamentally wrong with inner me, as there is nothing fundamentally wrong with you (take my word for it, Nilor, you are just as ordinaty as I am :slight_smile: ) Instead I ordered books about manners, because manners and social graces was all I lacked in, and improving my manners were my key to getting more succesful social encounters. I recommend the author Judith Martin (Miss Manners) for her wit, and her insight in how people and social situations *really * are. Just try, for instance, her books " the right thing to say" or “The guide to raising perfect children” or 'The guide to excruciatingly good behavior"

Could you perhaps, for a flying start, ask a female friend of yours (or a female shopattendant) to to clothes shopping with you? She could also take you to a hairdresser, to get a contemporary, fashionable look, even if it may not be entirely “you”. Think of your manners and your appearance as your window shop. Your product (the inner you) is a good one, and all that is required of you is to make it less hard for other people to reach you. Your customers will pay you abd themselves by lessening each others loneliness (as you have done by posting your OP and I by posting to it) and showing you and themselves, that companionship is a nice alternative, at times, to books, hobbies, pets, nature and a few trusted friends. :slight_smile:

Good luck.

I don’t think you should give up hope.

Face it, there is no one out there so weird, so creepy so ugly that someone won’t love them. (And, for the record, I doubt you’re any of those: weird, ugly or creepy. Like Maastricht says, I think you just need to work on your social skills and boost that self-confidence a bit and you’ll be fine.) Serial killers have people that love them. Child abusers have people that love them. That creepy woman who had all that plastic surgery to look like a lion has a boyfriend, for goodness’ sakes! There’s no way you’ll convince me you’re that weird.

I’m a 200 pound woman with a chip on her shoulder because of it. Yet I average two romantic partners a year. There are people who find fat women sexy, thank Og. My husband (we’re in an open marriage, don’t freak on me) has an overearnest vibe that some people feel is “creepy”, and others find very endearing and sweet. He averages about 6 romantic partners a year.

See, as a social person, I would have coded this as follows: “Huh. There’s Nilor again. He must think he’s too good to hang out with us. Why won’t he acknowledge me? We had a great time when we hung out last week, and now he acts like he doesn’t even know me. Well, fine! I refuse to be the one always reaching out. If he doesn’t want to meet me halfway, then fuck him.”

Someone, at some time, gave you a far too important sense of yourself. Yes, that’s what I said. There’s no way you are so eath-shatteringly important that your joining a group would change their dynamic all that much. You’re not so important that a conversation with you will ruin a person’s day. Your presence will rarely be burdensome, unless you dominate the conversation. How do you avoid doing that? Ask at least two questions for every statement you make:

You: Do you mind if I join you?
Her: No, of course not.
You: What’s that book you’re reading?
Her: Oh, The DaVinci Code.
You: You know, I’ve heard some pretty controversial things about it. What do you think of it?
Her: blah. blah blah.
You: Have you read anything else like it?
Now you’ve made one comment and asked two questions. This is a good ratio for getting a conversation going. If it doesn’t work, she probably would rather read her book and you should politely excuse yourself and move on. It doesn’t need to be a big crushing rejection, just a cue to say, “It’s been nice meeting you. Have a great day!”

If you’re self-conscious about your looks, by all means drop $50 and go to a good barber or stylist for a grooming. But looks are rarely as important to women as social skills and conversation.

Some of the best conversations I’ve had were with people who just sort of wandered into my vicinity or vice-versa. You’re really closing yourself off with that line of thinking.

There are times when I “intrude” on other people in public places (like a club or something) and I wish I hadn’t so I wander off again. No harm no foul.

First let me say, I applaud the kindness and sincere willingness to help ** Maastricht ** exhibits in her post! Pay heed, it’s very good advice!

The only thing which struck me in reading your post is that you characterize joining a group as “intruding.” I would venture to say very few people would see it this way. Without being pushy, it’s up to you to make your own happiness. If you’re interested in other people, they’ll be interested in you.

Good luck, and don’t give up. People aren’t as a whole a horrible, cruel and uncaring lot. We care about each other–give us a chance to prove it to you! :slight_smile:

I agree with this completely. Also, when you only socialize by invitation only, and don’t put out any of your own invites or seek out others’ company, I would think that you only accepted invitations to be polite, but didn’t really want to socialize with that particular group. I would probably stop inviting you after awhile because I would think that if you really wanted to hang out, you would initiate contact as well. While this isn’t the case, I would think I was “letting you off the hook” to socialize with people you didn’t really want to socialize with.

Also, I would add that it seems you are going through an awful lot of effort to be an unapproachable person. Your outward appearance (as you describe it above) suggests the message “stay away from me” because you are not following some of the most basic and generic social rules of our society – such as having neat, clean hair.

There is a happy medium between being a slave to fashion and being completely unkempt. You don’t need a hipster haircut that costs $100 a pop. A standard “basic” short haircut – such as one can get at any barber or Supercuts for $15 – looks good on most men. Heck, it sounds like a simple trim every other month would be a huge improvement! If you really don’t feel like dealing with that, shave it off yourself with a pair of $40 clippers. It looks better, and is more comfortable, than nasty ratty clumpy frizzy long hair.

It seems that in rejecting “fashion” you’ve also tossed out some basic standards of tidiness. Luckily, they are not hard to reclaim without going all the way overboard in a direction you’re not comfortable with.

Ah, how difficult it is to construct a reply that does not insult those who posted…

Perhaps I’ll start by saying thanks for the well thought-out replies, and I’m sorry I could not respond to more but time, space, and flow do not always permit what we hoped :wink:

Parts of what’s to following probably sound like I’m just searching for excuses; I’m not.

While I see some of myself in how Maastricht was, I also see things that are quite different, things I would never dream of thinking. Things like,

and

(I realize the quotes are from different people, but the implied message is quite similar)
Perhaps I do have this attitude, but not by desire. I do not view other people as “them”, but rather, I view myself as “them”, and it is I who will never understand. Oh, sure, I can understand character, where someone is coming from, and so on. But understand why someone would care for another…never.

I did not mention it in my first post, but I have, in the past, gone to great lengths to kill off my emotions; perhaps by never allowing myself to become attached, perhaps by suppressing all feelings. The thread I mentioned in my second post(and the end of my first) is, perhaps, one of the few threads of emotion left. Why it escaped, I’ll never know. Now, though, I’m having second thoughts about the wisdom of my earlier efforts, and the thread is tantalizingly close, yet always out of reach. Because…because my previous attitude made me an observer. Always watching, never interfering.


To respond on a slightly less personal note, I’m not self-conscious about my looks at all, I was just recognizing that they are not what society accepts as normal. Actually though, I was slightly misleading in my first post, I have gotten my hair cut since I grew it out, 'twas cut about a month ago, actually.

As for tidiness…I wash my hair daily :wink:

Oh, and,

I didn’t mention how old I was:P (but for the record, I’m 21)

Bah! You see my problem? With the first line of my post I implied that I had reason to insult, or that I was thinking about it. I was not, and I probably should have left that line out.

The OP sounds like something I could have written. And to some extent, still could. I’ll be reading this thread for advice as well as offering a bit of my own.

There’s a quote from Bull Durham that I’ve always liked.

Which to me means that the sort of people who glide blissfully through through their lives never have to ask themselves these kinds of questions; and wouldn’t even if they had to.

Take charge, make plans or just hang out and invite other people to join you. Don’t assume that they’re company is something for you to aspire to. They are not the arbiters, the gateway to the hippest clubs, the best movies, the coolest music. Find something on your own to share with them.

(Actually, my particular social stumbling block isn’t the skills. I just get so involved in the substance of a conversation that I forget to look for any indicators about whether someone is captivated or bored to tears. All tactics and no strategy. Is that the sort of thing you’re facing as well?)

And there is nothing about you that disqualifies you from finding someone who makes you happy. I think everybody who falls in love is at least a little surprised by it. No predictions, no guarantees, and nobody has it all figured out in advance.

[sub]On preview, this post isn’t turning out quite the way I hoped it would. I’m going to take my own advice and post it anyway.[/sub]

You are only 21. You’re practically a baby.

If I were him, I’d be insulted by that. Probably because someone said that to my face once when I was the same age.

For any social interaction to take place, someone needs to intrude. It is no more of an intrusion to walk up to someone’s conversation with “hey, you guys are talking about beer, I love beer!” than it is for someone to intrude into your thoughts and solitude with an invitation. In other words, it isn’t someone else’s responsibility to invite you. The trick is to become socially aware enough to recognize the situations where intrusion is welcome and where it is an …intrusion.

Some tricks, if you are interested in leaving the solitude, is to find groups of people where the group talks about something in particular and everyone is supposed to make conversation. It can be a bookclub at your local Barnes and Noble, or panel discussion at convention of Star Trek fans, or sitting on the committee of a volunteer organization, or something through your church.

But, yes, if you spend your life walking around in an aura of “I don’t want to intrude” others will likely read “and I don’t want to be intruded on” into that. And you’ll need to get really lucky for someone to just walk up to you and make casual conversation and have that turn into a relationship.

(Though I once “dated” a guy I’d met in a registration line at college that I just started talking to. “Dated” because I was seventeen and he was twenty four and we went out a lot but I think I got three kisses in six months of dating…in retrospect I think he was waiting for me to grow up but we lost touch before that happened. And my oldest friend in the world I just walked up to in the hallway at a highschool speech meet and started talking to…and he introduced me to his friends, and one of his friends and I got married ten years later, have been married for ten years and have two children. But neither of these guys was the type that wouldn’t talk to a complete stranger.)

I’m going to disagree with everyone who implied that there’s someone out there for everyone.

With your attitude you are closing yourself off from any and all prospects. It is highly unlikely that someone is going to come along and find you so intriguing that they’re going to coax you out of your self emposed emotional prison. A relationship is like building a bridge with one person on each side of the river, if there’s only one person doing the building the thing will collapse before it gets to the other side.

It is entirely possible that if you don’t realize that you need to change your attitude you are going to be alone forever. Attitude is everything. You have the choice to remain locked in your current head space or find a way out.

You can take the advice given and make steps toward learning how to reach out to other people or you can continue your current path. The choice is yours.

A bit of advice that always gets thrown out in these sorts of threads is, what kind of exercise regimen do you have? It’s a good piece of advice, too.

A few years ago, I was in lousy shape. I weighed almost 280 pounds and, while a lot of that was (out of shape) muscle, a lot of it was fat, too. I ate a lot, and was constantly depressed. I reasoned that nobody wanted to date a fat slob such as myself, which made me depressed, which made me eat more, which made me think that nobody wanted to date a fat slob, etc.

Finally I started working out again. I saw an improvement in my mood after only a few weeks. The exercise was clearing my brain and just generally making me feel better about myself. Now that I’m down to about 235 (I still have a little to lose), I find that I’m meeting women left and right. Some of that could be attributed to my having a better body, but I’m convinced that it’s mostly that I’m projecting a better attitude.

I would suggest that you check out a local gym. Most of them have circuits (a set of machines that, if done in the order they prescribe, will work every major muscle in your body in about 20 minutes) set up. Do that three times a week and do 20 minutes on a cardio machine. You don’t need to do four hour marathon training sessions, only enough to get the heart pumping and to tone your muscles a bit. You’ll feel better about yourself, you’ll look better, and your mood will improve.

He would be insulted because someone said that to you?

Look Nilor,

You’re 21. But guess what? You have 60, maybe 80 years of living in front of you. The vast majority of your life is in front of you. You now have freedom that you’ve never had previously in your life. You can move to a new town, a new state, a new country. You can work where you want, live how you want. And no matter how much you think you don’t have emotions, you do. You are not Spock. And if you think that the patterns of how you live during your teen age years is a good predictor of how your adult decades will go, well they will go that way if you let them.

And one other thing. You do not have psychic powers. You can’t read people’s mind or know what they would think if you ‘intruded’ on their group. Yes, some people will feel you are intruding. Some won’t. You have no way of knowing unless you take some action.

What are you really asking here, Nilor? Are you asking us if we think you are beyond hope, or if you should stop trying to have any human interaction at all, or if you should try to suppress any and all emotions, including the last ones you think you have left? I don’t really understand what you’re looking for here.

No, more like I suspect he would be insulted if someone said that to him.

Nilor, do you want a romantic relationship? It seems from your posts that you’re somewhat ambivalent.
I, too, am very reluctant (due to self-consciousness) to speak to strangers or approach a group of people I don’t know, or know well, and as a result I have been told that I come across as ‘stuck up’ at times. That may be how people see you as well. As for my 2 cents, you need to decide what sort of life you want to live and act accordingly. If you want a life in which you interact with others, you will need to accomodate others’ feelings and attitudes. Maastricht’s advice about manners is very good-there are rules to socialization. You don’t always need to follow them, but you should at least KNOW them. You seem intelligent and thoughtful and I think it would be a waste if you give up before even trying.