What do I do? What do I do? (socialization thing)

[monstro]

Two people–my next-door-neighbors at the apartment complex that I have currently vacated–came out to chat with me while I was loading up my car with stuff early this week. They were very nice, introducing themselves and asking if I needed help. They even apologized for not having talked to me before, especially now that I was moving. I apologized too; after all, they had moved next door to me just a month before and it should have been me welcoming them to the neighborhood.

The two women are married. Both in their forties, in college (apparently full-time). One of them asked if I’d like to come over for dinner one day–did I like blue crabs?–and I said something nerdy about crabs and avoiding their haematopancreas. That’s how it came out that I’m a scientist–marine biologist. That impressed them but one of the women wants to study marine science in graduate school. “You really have to come over now!” they said. Laughter ensued.

It was late in the night and I was worn out (cat had scratched me up to pieces too). They told me to knock on their door at any time, since they’re always home (which is kind of weird to me, but okay). Later in the week, as I was cleaning out my apartment, they left a note on the door inviting me to call them so we could chat. Then the next day, one of them called down to me from the balconey and asked if I wanted to come over for wine or coffee. Or water, since I can’t drink either of those things. Again, it was very late and my social juices were in the negative, so I said something about another time. But really I wanted to say “No, please. You’re nice and all, but I’m just not interested.”

I know why I’m not interested. It’s a familiar thing for me. You can be very nice to me, almost overly so, but I don’t latch myself on to people. There’s this fear of committment thing, I guess. I know that sounds crazy since it’s not like they want to marry me or anything, but that’s my fear. Getting too close, too involved. I don’t want to get “sucked in” and then have to hurt feelings by backing out, which eventually happens. Perhaps if the relationship had unfurled slowly, with us bumping into each other on the sidewalk every so often, over a long period of time, I would feel like things were moving at a natural pace. But suddenly I’m going from, “I don’t know these people” to “Come on over, monstro, and let’s chew the fat over cheesecake cake! And we can talk and talk all night long!!” I’m not understanding how one moment I didn’t register on their radar and overnight it seems like they want me to be their BFF.

I feel bad because I feel like there’s nothing wrong with these ladies. They are happy and bubbly types; which isn’t me, but that’s okay. Maybe it’s because in the brief conversation with me, they introduced themselves as “a couple of white witches”? Wiccans? I asked. Yes, one of them said. Well, why not just say so? And why interject race into it? You’re obviously white. But I’m not sure if that kind of awkwardness is putting me off. I just don’t know what it is.

I feel that I should be trying to push myself towards people, not keeping to myself as much as I do. I keep telling myself this is something I need to work on to really free myself of my demons. But do I have to befriend every friendly person that comes my way? If I have no good reason not to make friends with someone and I choose to ignore their invitations for friendship, am I being mean? But if I should take the plunge and be “nice”, what do I have to lose? I can think of a lot of things, but maybe it’s time to let go a little?

I don’t know. I’m rambling now. But I just don’t know what to do. This is different than turning down sexual advances, because chemistry must be there and if it’s not, well, it’s nobody’s fault. Does friendship work the same way? How do you determine if chemistry is there if you don’t start the reaction?

[Renee]

Re: the white witches thing, I would personally take that as “good witches” rather than a reference to race. However, they sound pushy and I think if you initiate a friendship with them you’ll end up with them expecting you to talk and hang out all the time, which you clearly don’t want (and I completely understand that). I’d continue putting them off, if it were me.

[Maserschmidt]

Well let’s address the first thing: if you aren’t fundamentally curious what makes other people tick, or if you don’t have that instinct to find common ground (the way people do over music or books or movies), then you’re probably going to have a hard time reaching out to people in a way that’s instinctive…essentially you’re going to have to force yourself to act in a way that doesn’t feel natural, and it will be somewhat high stress.

It might be an interesting exercise for you to try to find out about these two ladies - focus on what makes them tick. Not only might you unexpectedly enjoy yourself, but it will also take some of the pressure off you.

But that said…I used to be a lot like you (unless I’m reading too much into this), and I hated social obligations, or frankly any kind of obligations. So I get that, and recognize that you’re dealing with a habit that is both emotionally safe in some ways, but also allows you to be selfish with your time. So I guess the question is who you want to be years from now, and if you don’t like the answer to that, is there an emotional muscle you can start developing that might change you. I can tell you that I did it, and I’m happy with where I am now…but the effort is difficult.

Good luck.

[Chicken_Fingers]

White magic vs. black magic. Nothing to do with race.

You know, several times I’ve had this same kind of suddenly super-friendly experience with neighbors as one or the other of us were moving out. I wouldn’t read too much into it or feel too much pressure. If you’re moving out, and you don’t feel like socializing, that’s just how you are, and try not to worry about it.

[Oakminster]

Dude, they gave you the perfect opening for a story that begins “Dear Penthouse, I never thought something like this would happen to me…” and you whiffed.

[monstro]

Thanks for the “white witch” clarification. For some reason, that was driving me crazy all week!

[Oakminster]

The “white witch” thing makes me suspect they’re…odd. Most serious Wiccans I know don’t use that term. Wicca is pretty much all “white magic”–one of the basic tenets of that faith is “And it harm none, do then what ye will”. Attempting to do harm is frowned upon–and pretty much the opposite of what they’re about.

[heavyarms553]

Marine biologist presumably with schizoid personality disorder meets presumably lesbian over friendly wiccan couple.

Can’t make that shit up.

[not_what_you_d_expect]

Many, many years from now, when you are lying on your death bed, do you want to be alone or do you want other people around? Either answer is ok, but if you want other people around then, you have to cultivate a relationship with them now.

Sometimes it’s a bitch to be a friend. People want you to spend time with them and a lot of times, they are boring as shit and you’d rather be at home. But sometimes you make a connection and sometimes you have fun.

It’s a crap shoot and I don’t even know what point I was trying to make.

Oh, now I remember, Monstro, I really enjoy your posts. You always write so beautifully. So, if you speak as well as you write, I can certainly understand why these ladies would be drawn to you.

[Johnny_L.A]

@monstro

did I like blue crabs?–and I said something nerdy about crabs and avoiding their haematopancreas. That’s how it came out that I’m a scientist–marine biologist. That impressed them but one of the women wants to study marine science in graduate school. “You really have to come over now!” they said. Laughter ensued.

How’d you like to come over and look at my Batillaria sometime? Maybe I can find some Caprellids as well.

.

[sandra_nz]

@monstro

I feel that I should be trying to push myself towards people, not keeping to myself as much as I do. I keep telling myself this is something I need to work on to really free myself of my demons. But do I have to befriend every friendly person that comes my way? If I have no good reason not to make friends with someone and I choose to ignore their invitations for friendship, am I being mean? But if I should take the plunge and be “nice”, what do I have to lose? I can think of a lot of things, but maybe it’s time to let go a little?

This is a perfect opportunity to let go a little. Why? Because you’re moving out, so if you find the evening you spend with them to be overwhelming/unenjoyable, you’ll easily be able to avoid bumping into them again in the future.

I feel that if you really just weren’t interested in socialising with these people, you wouldn’t have written seven paragraphs justifying your lack of interest. So maybe you should take the plunge.

You won’t free yourself from the demons if you just keeping running away from them.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@monstro

I don’t know. I’m rambling now. But I just don’t know what to do. This is different than turning down sexual advances, because chemistry must be there and if it’s not, well, it’s nobody’s fault. Does friendship work the same way? How do you determine if chemistry is there if you don’t start the reaction?

Look, you don’t need to have friends, and you can do your own thing and hang out in your own company as much as you like; HOWEVER, you do seem to express that you might be keen on making some friends.

So, with that in mind, friendship is a bit like yoga - you need to practice in order to get good at it. So, you find these ladies a bit odd, but they’re friendly and it seems like you might have at least one thing to talk to them about (marine biology) - why not have a practice friend date with them. Go over, have a slice of coffee and cheesecake (or whatever is appropriate for you) shoot the shit and see how it goes.

The thing is, I think you keep psyching yourself out. Like ‘Well, these women are friendly and stuff, but there a bit odd - AAAAHHHHHH - what if they’re not the perfect friends for me?!?!?!’ Who gives a crap? Unlike a romantic partnership (generally) you can have lots of different friends and different groups of friends. One coffee date does not mean these are the last people you can ever be friends with.

Now, if you really don’t like them, and really don’t want to spend time with them, don’t. But if it’s more like they’re not exactly what you were thinking of when you thought about having a friend or two but may be OK, well, go for it.

Most people have different groups of friends - the ones they’re very close to, the ones they see at work, the ones they call when the shit hits the fan and the ones they see once every couple of months and talk about marine biology. Not all of them need to be in the same category of intimacy, but developing relationships at lower levels of intimacy will help you practice for when you meet someone with whom you might want a higher degree of intimacy.

Does that make sense?

[BigT]

@Oakminster

The “white witch” thing makes me suspect they’re…odd. Most serious Wiccans I know don’t use that term. Wicca is pretty much all “white magic”–one of the basic tenets of that faith is “And it harm none, do then what ye will”. Attempting to do harm is frowned upon–and pretty much the opposite of what they’re about.

I, on the other hand, have heard many people describe themselves just as that. It’s not what they actually think of themselves, but it’s the easiest way to explain the concept to people. Granted, they usually say they are Wiccan first, but, if my mental picture of these women is correct, I could see them thinking it was the height of hilarity to introduce themselves as such.

Then again, most of the Wiccans I’ve met in real life are actually pretty crazy. I think they have to be to want to hang out here in the Bible Belt.

As for what I was going to say to monstro: alice and sandra covered it while I was typing. I will cover one more thing: This is pretty much how all my friendships have worked. When I am intentionally trying to make friends, this is exactly what happens. And who you pick is usually pretty random.

[BigT]

NETA: Well, it seems that way to outsiders. It’s just being in the right place at the right time, really. I was in the mood to make friends, I thought of something to say, there was little risk, the person seemed open, etc. And while I would probably have not laid it on quite so thick, using better pacing, I know several people who wouldn’t. Relationships with those people never get very deep, but they are fun.

Of course, half of the times I can think of, the woman was very clearly flirting, made even more clear when they would push harder when it seemed like I wasn’t getting it.

[eclectic_wench]

You’re freaking yourself out by wayyy overestimating the level of commitment they’re asking for here. At this stage, you don’t need to decide whether you want to be friends with these people. All you need to decide is whether you want to go over and hang out for an hour some evening. That’s it.

If you were still living right next to them, then yeah, it makes sense to be a little cautious with socialising, in case you find yourself stuck with people whom it turns out you don’t really like but who want to come over for chitchat every evening.

But you just moved out. If you spend an hour one evening hanging out, and it doesn’t really gel, then you never need to see them or talk to them again. If it kind of gels but you’re still uncertain, then you decide when and whether you’d like to give it another shot. You’re not committed for anything beyond the actual moment.

The same goes for them. They don’t want you to move in with them; they just want to find out whether they like you enough to spend a second evening with you.

Of course friendship needs chemistry. The way you find out if there’s chemistry is by spending a little time together, and then, if that works, a little more. I have two friends with whom I had an InstaClick - the second time we met, we felt like we’d known each other since we were kids - but the rest took time.

[monstro]

@not_what_you_d_expect

Many, many years from now, when you are lying on your death bed, do you want to be alone or do you want other people around? Either answer is ok, but if you want other people around then, you have to cultivate a relationship with them now.

Well, not to be all personality disordery in this here thread, but this is the ever-present schizoid dilemma. You recognize that constant aloneness makes for a boring, gray, and lonely life. But you don’t want to be close to people. You do not want friends or have them involved in any meaningful way in your life. The idea is not frightening. It is suicide-inducing terror.

It is a horrible dilemma.

Schizoids often come up with a compromise. Mine? I always live in the center of cities. I go to street festivals and hang out at my sidewalk vending table for hours during the weekend, talking to all kinds of people but not taking them home with me. At work, I spend hours locked in my office but then come out to the break room and tell a few jokes, just to connect for a few fleeting minutes. I volunteer to do things at work that force me to interact with people, so many people in my building know me. I have cultivated a certain charm, but it’s kind of a defense mechanism. “I’ll entertain you for a spell, but this is all you’re gonna get. Laugh at me or with me, but whatever you do, do not step beyond the velvet rope.”

Sometimes it’s a bitch to be a friend. People want you to spend time with them and a lot of times, they are boring as shit and you’d rather be at home. But sometimes you make a connection and sometimes you have fun.

It’s a crap shoot and I don’t even know what point I was trying to make.

I get what you are saying. It’s all true.

I guess my problem isn’t that I want a friend. I want to want a friend. I have to make myself want to be around these people and I don’t know how without it seeming like yet another chore that I have to do in my life.

Oh, now I remember, Monstro, I really enjoy your posts. You always write so beautifully. So, if you speak as well as you write, I can certainly understand why these ladies would be drawn to you.

Thank you so much for the compliment. Other people have said I have this “attractive” quality in my external personality, which I know I should appreciate (my life would probably be different without it). But man, it does make it hard to be invisible.

@sandra_nz

I feel that if you really just weren’t interested in socialising with these people, you wouldn’t have written seven paragraphs justifying your lack of interest. So maybe you should take the plunge.

You won’t free yourself from the demons if you just keeping running away from them.

Well, I’m pretty sure I don’t want to socialize with them. I’m not the type to deny myself of wants. If anything, I’m kind of impulsive in this department. If I wanted to be with them, I would. I’m not a real shy person. Quiet and reserved, but not shy (discovering this was actually amazing to me, but it’s true).

What I’m interested in is wanting to want to socialize, and knowing when it is appropriate to be picky and when to try people out. I do not want to be hurtful and cold. But I don’t want to do things just because they seem like the right thing to do. My whole life is full of these kinds of activities…things I feel obligated to do but don’t want to do.

You are right that I have to stop avoiding situations if I am ever to beat down the demon of fear. But the demon of not caring has a real tight grip on me. I have to face both demons simultaneously. I don’t know if these two women are enough to inspire me to fight hard enough.

@alice_in_wonderland

The thing is, I think you keep psyching yourself out. Like ‘Well, these women are friendly and stuff, but there a bit odd - AAAAHHHHHH - what if they’re not the perfect friends for me?!?!?!’ Who gives a crap? Unlike a romantic partnership (generally) you can have lots of different friends and different groups of friends. One coffee date does not mean these are the last people you can ever be friends with.

I don’t know if I want them to be perfect. I don’t have a “fantasy” friend, you know? I don’t have an ideal that I hold people up to. It’s just that I take people as they are, but will only take them so far.

I don’t want this to be yet another instance of me pulling out of a relationship and being wracked with guilt about it. The last person I befriended I dumped unceremoniously, without even telling her I was through with her forever. I had been going over to her house diligently every week, whether I wanted to or not, for over a year. As an exercise in befriending and be-kinding. But it didn’t stick, and it took spending a weekend of house-sitting in a flea-infested house for me to realize that I wasn’t getting anything but pain out of the relationship. Now, I’m afraid to go to certain places for fear of bumping into her. I can’t even turn on a certain radio channel because she’s a radio D.J. Just the sound of her voice conjures up really bad memories and emotions about myself (not her, strangely enough. Just me).

I am a hard worker. If I know I have a problem, I know how to override my gut instinct and keep working at it. I will stay up all night trying to solve a problem even though my gut is telling me that the problem is intractable. So I’m afraid the same robotic drive will kick in and I will be stuck for a year or so, waiting to get pleasure out of a relationship, all in the quest of fighting a maladaptive personality. Because I know the women aren’t the problem, it’s me. If I just tried harder…

I’m making it out to be more melodramatic and harder than it is, no doubt. But I have experienced this “failure to latch” so many times throughout my life that it’s not really an irrational fear to me. It’s not “just coffee”. The “just coffee” date will not be pleasurable for me, but that won’t matter. There will be that voice that says, “Nothing is ever pleasurable for you, goddammit. If you’re giving up for this reason, then why not give up on everything?” So I’ll just keep plunging away, because I’ll believe everyone must have had to do this with the friends they have made…and see how happy they are now? And eventually, after a lot of meaningless stress and pain, I will break down and give up. And there will be another load of guilt to pile on top of the stinking heap.

It is a dilemma, as I said. Maybe I should just throw up my hands and not struggle anymore. As that Buddhist tract I recently read recommended. Stop struggling, stop trying to improve yourself, and simply endure reality.

[chiroptera]

@monstro

As that Buddhist tract I recently read recommended. Stop struggling, stop trying to improve yourself, and simply endure reality.

Or, more simply, experience reality. You’re putting a negative, stressy spin on this right off the bat.

Also I think you are assuming that friendly, perhaps over-friendly neighborly actions carry a whole lot more emotional weight than they do.

But, I get the terror/separateness part, and that is reality too. But, hanging out for an hour or so, then smiling and leaving, isn’t that scary. Is it? You would like to be able to do this, but are overthinking it.

I have a very chatty and talkative neighbor, who would like to get into my pants. He’s a nice guy, a good neighbor and we click on several levels, but I certainly don’t want anything intimate with him. Each time he’s invited me over for BBQ/dinner/cocktails, I politely decline. When he walks over to shoot the shit on my front porch, I’m friendly and happy to chit-chat. It didn’t take him long to figure out what parameters were acceptable to me socially, and our interactions are comfortably conducted at the mail box or sitting on my porch for a bit. So it’s really cool.

You sound nice, and interesting, and also a bit conflicted and desperate. I’d try to lose the baggage and expectations that come with casual social interaction - probably easier said than done I am sure - determine your parameters and boundaries ahead of time, then relax.

I’m not sure how my IRL, long-term friends get to be real friends. Lack of pressure, shared interests, the realization that I choose to seek them out and chat, feeling I can disclose icky or personal stuff without censure, people I can share a belly-laugh with.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@monstro

I had been going over to her house diligently every week, whether I wanted to or not, for over a year.

Why did you do this? Is it because you think this is what friend’s are supposed to do? Honestly, if my best friend needed a kidney, I would give it to her, but if I hung out at her house every week I’d stab either her or myself in the face with a fork. If you’re not enjoying going to someone’s house, you shouldn’t go.

It seems like you’re a bit confused about exactly what is involved with being someone’s friend. You don’t need to spend every waking minute with them, it’s just someone that you enjoy spending time with either doing a mutually enjoyable activity (I have knitting friends), or bitching about your day (I have bitching friends) or going to a movie together (this tends to be my brother or my husband).

But here’s the important thing - you’re not supposed to hate it. It’s not supposed to be a chore. If you don’t like hanging out with people IRL then don’t hang out with them - who give’s a shit what someone told you you ‘should’ do? Do what you enjoy.

And by the way, you spend a lot of time here, chatting online. There are people here (myself included) who would care if something bad happened to you, and are interested to know about what you’re up to. These people are your friends. Now, maybe it’s one sided and you don’t give a crap about what happens to any of the folks here - that’s ok, but you need to give yourself a break. You do have friends - online friends, but friends nonetheless. It’s OK for that to be good enough.

[monstro]

@alice_in_wonderland

Why did you do this? Is it because you think this is what friend’s are supposed to do? Honestly, if my best friend needed a kidney, I would give it to her, but if I hung out at her house every week I’d stab either her or myself in the face with a fork. If you’re not enjoying going to someone’s house, you shouldn’t go.

She had a small farm that she made her living from. She didn’t have employees to help her; she relied on volunteers. So I made it my duty to be there every weekend (she’d always call me beforehand, so it wasn’t like I was showing up uninvited).

What ended up happening was that she used me up for all I was worth. She knew I was always going to be available, that I didn’t want anything in return, and that I wasn’t looking to get all in her business or be drama queeny. So if she wanted to take a long weekend vacation somewhere, she knew she could lean on me to watch the farm. When she broke her foot and needed someone to clean her house and drive her to the seed store, she knew she could depend on me. And because I thought I was being a friend, which is a good thing to be, I did everything I thought a friend would do. Typical “as-if” behavior.

But I never needed her for anything. The only pleasure I got were bowls of ice cream after a long day of work. I realized that relationships can’t be one-sided like this, but by then I was in over my head. How could I back out after all the time and energy I had invested? Her asking me to house-sit in a house full of fleas gave me an excuse.

It seems like you’re a bit confused about exactly what is involved with being someone’s friend. You don’t need to spend every waking minute with them, it’s just someone that you enjoy spending time with either doing a mutually enjoyable activity (I have knitting friends), or bitching about your day (I have bitching friends) or going to a movie together (this tends to be my brother or my husband).

I know all of this, and yet when it comes to implementation, I start thinking, “You have to work at this because you know how you are. So stop worrying about not enjoying and just do it. You will be a better person because of it.”

If a person knows they have a problem pushing other people away and they’re trying to override this tendency, he or she can go overboard because they don’t know the middle-ground. So they accept every invitation because if they don’t, they’ll feel like they’re doing “it” again and aren’t they trying to be more open and generous with their time? Or they’ll do every favor asked of them because don’t friends do favors for each other? I consider myself fairly smart, but I admit that I’m very dumb in this area. Gullible in lots of ways, but then distrustful.

But here’s the important thing - you’re not supposed to hate it. It’s not supposed to be a chore. If you don’t like hanging out with people IRL then don’t hang out with them - who give’s a shit what someone told you you ‘should’ do? Do what you enjoy.

OK. I’ll try to let go of the idea that I’ll be “normal”. Like in yoga. I’m letting go of the idea that I’ll ever get better with that. Letting go of hope and just accepting things the way they are. I hate the philosophy of surrendering but I honestly don’t know what else to do anymore. :throws up hands and shakes head:

And by the way, you spend a lot of time here, chatting online. There are people here (myself included) who would care if something bad happened to you, and are interested to know about what you’re up to. These people are your friends. Now, maybe it’s one sided and you don’t give a crap about what happens to any of the folks here - that’s ok, but you need to give yourself a break. You do have friends - online friends, but friends nonetheless. It’s OK for that to be good enough.

Is it really, though? If you were me and you did not have IRL friends, would you think you were really okay?

[John_Mace]

Do you really not have any friends? If so, then go over and have a drink with the wiccans. The most you have to lose is an hour or two. You don’t have to see them again if you don’t want to. But if you want to expand your social sphere, you’ll have to kiss a few frogs along the way, so to speak.

The only caveat I would give is if you got some sexual innuendo from the invite and don’t want to deal with that.