As any casual student of the Bible knows, it is a sin to bear false witness, and a sin to kill/murder. It is therefore implied (and one would be afraid to think otherwise) that someone who tells lies which results in the death of others would be doubly sinned.
Given, then, that George W. Bush’s lies about Iraqi WMDs have (so far) resulted in the deaths of 100,000+ Iraqi civilians and 1,000+ American servicemen, is he destined to go to Hell? If not, what are the mitigating factors that could actually outweigh such a crime, and cause God to give mercy on such an act? Furthermore, assuming that Bush does go to Hell, what is the danger to those God-fearing voters who voted for his re-election in November? Is it a sin to support a sinner, especially since – at the time of the election – the non-existence of Iraqi WMDs and the mounting casualties in Iraq were both well-known?
(For the sake of this exercise, let’s skip any answers that assume the non-existence of God, Heaven, and/or Hell. I don’t believe in those things myself, but am still interested in exploring the issue from a theological/philosophical/morality viewpoint.)
As a poster in that other thread, I would like to make a few points:
there are varying responses over who goes to Hell. Since Bush has a belief in God, this alone may be enough to save him. There is general agreement that if he repents anything that needs repenting, he will be saved.
I think you will have difficulty linking voting for Bush with a religious offence. I was personally disappointed he won, but one could argue that the US are stuck with Iraq now. Of course if Bush produces ‘evidence’ that requires the invasion of another country, one would hope for both secular and religious objections.
although I detest what my leader (Blair) has done over Iraq (and he states he has nothing to apologise for), I think this thread is a bit of a red herring. I doubt the sort of people who believe in Hell will be impressed by objections to the war in Iraq.
So you’re an atheist, and you believe religion doesn’t make sense, yet you’re willing to speculate about whether George Bush is going to end up in hell?
I think you’re picking up yet another cudgel to beat the man with, even though it’s an issue you don’t believe in yourself.
“I don’t believe in Hell, but I think Bush belongs there.” That seems to be the crux of your argument, and it seems just silly to me.
C’mon, rjung. You’re capable of better points than this.
I’ve actually been reading the Bible from start to finish, and I’m up to Ezra now. I can tell you that Exodus through Chronicles is pretty much one slaughter and petty murder after another. Mostly these are sanctioned even demanded by God, usually because the evil ones happen to be living for generations on the land he promised to his “chosen people”. Worshiping the wrong god would get you or your entire country a death sentence from Jehovah, also.
There appear to be more exceptions to the “thou shalt not kill” rule than there are cases that fall under it, especially if you slaughter the entire culture. (Don’t forget the women and children. They gotta go also. Oh, yeah, and the cows, pigs, and sheep, too.)
Nor did rjung posit that. He’s essentially asking if lying and killing on a grand scale get you a trip to hell, not whether disagreeing with rjung does.
But Christians (mostly) believe that anything is forgiveable for the asking, so long as it’s sincere, and that the old law is replaced by the new covenant, making the ten commandments great, but not checklist pearly gates interview questions.
Besides, “Thou Shalt Not Kill” translates better as “Thou Shalt Not Murder,” and the Jews who originally celebrated those ten laws practiced plenty of war on their own - they clearly did not think war counted as breaking the so-called ‘killy commandment.’
I’m less concerned with GeeDubya’s going to Hell as with the prospect of taking the rest of us along.
And what about collective responsibility? If we can send Adolf Eichmann straight to Hell, what about the conductor who helped those trains to run on time? The American government doing and/or condoning apalling crimes is not news, unless you got all your American history in school. Is opposition enough? “Gee, Lord, got that blistered foot on the Peace March, howzabout we trade that for screwing my cousin?”
If we set the bar for damnation at making a decision or directing a policy that results in the death of a thousand innocent people, you’re gonna have a hard time finding a President who’s not Extra Crispy.
I figure on a sliding scale, in the enduring hope that the Lord grades on the curve. If Nixon ain’t in Hell, none of them are. And if Jimmy Carter goes, we’re all pretty much fucked.
Simple answer: it’s not for any of us to say who goes where. If you’re not God, you are in no position to judge. You can judge him personally all you want, but that has no bearing on the ultimate status of anything or anyone.
But by all means, please continue to ask ridiculous questions. It gives me my daily laugh.
Odds against any Bush supporters reading the OP and 1) slapping themselves on the forehead and saying “My God, he’s right! Bush is a lying hypocrite who’ll go to hell!! How could have I have been so deceived?” or 2) denying the premise but secretly being seized by self-doubt and subsequently renouncing GWB: 10,000 to 1.
Odds against any fence-sitter reading the OP and being so disgusted with the self-serving manipulative use of religion that they begin to sympathize more with Bush: 5,000:1.
Odds of the OP generating nothing more than further predictable snipes from the usual suspects: Excellent.
Rjung’s a he. And it’s a silly OP that has no substantive purpose. Does anyone really think that any of the Pubs here are going to question anything their leader does?
He told voters he made no mistakes he could remember… so I guess the repenting part would be only in front of God… or not. Pity I don’t beleive in these things… I might contemplate with pleasure of Hell getting such a deserving guest.
Tell me about it, bubelah. I had the completely disturbing experience of having to say to my husband this weekend: "Did you hear that WE are using NAPALM in Iraq?"
To which he replied: “It must be all the jungle clearing they have to do.”
Yeah- I heard about that this weekend. I thought for sure there would be a thread in GD about it. Did I miss it? Napalm is seriously evil stuff- it’s too indiscriminate in who it condemns to a very painful death. Its use, in my opinion, constitutes a war crime.
Actually, I thought this was more of a “turn about is fair play thread” since there were a few religious types declaring that voting for Kerry was a mortal sin. I suppose a vote for Bush could be as well. My religiousosity is nowhere near good enough to discuss the point though.
Still, if a vote for Kerry was enough to send you to the deeeeeeeep south, I guess it could work for Bush too.
Not true. As I’ve already pointed out before, he specifically said that he DID make mistakes. He admitted that he appointed some individuals, for example, who turned out to be less-than-stellar choices. (He did decline to name them during the Presidential debates, but that was a wise move.)
That’s a far cry from saying that he made no mistakes that he could remember.
Pity I don’t beleive in these things… I might contemplate with pleasure of Hell getting such a deserving guest.