The evil of Saddam and the evil of Bush

Many on this board and elsewhere have said that Saddam Hussein was evil. People who take this position commonly say or imply that he was evil because he killed so many people. If Saddam is evil for this reason, then George W. Bush and his fellow Republicans are even more evil.

The highest estimate I’ve seen for the death toll under Saddam is 330,000 people, the sum of 100,000 during the first extermination campaign against the Kurds and 230,000 during the brutal crackdowns after the First Iraq War. Both these numbers are at the high end of the ranges, so the real death toll was probably lower. So during his 24-year reign, he was responsible for at most an average of 13,750 people per year.

The death toll due to George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq was 650,000 people during the first three and a quarter years, according to the Lancet Study. Several other thorough, non-partisan studies have confirmed that the figure lies in the same order of magnitude. This means that Bush and friends are killing Iraqis more than 14 times faster than Saddam did, so they must be more than fourteen times as evil as Saddam was.

I anticipate several objections to this line of reasoning.

First, some will object that the figures for the death toll from Bush’s war are not accurate, despite the fact that multiple independent sources have arrived at the same conclusion. However, even if we take the lowest figures that anyone offers, we still find that Bush is killing Iraqis faster than Saddam. There’s no escaping the conclusion that way.

Second, some will object that deaths not committed by people directly under Bush’s command aren’t Bush’s responsibility. But people are responsible for the consequences of their decisions. Bush made the decision to invade Iraq and destroy the Iraqi government. When a government is destroyed, anarchy results (by definition). In anarchy, large numbers of people die. Since the 650,000 deaths would have been avoided if Bush hadn’t invaded Iraq, they are all Bush’s responsibility.

Thirdly, some will allege that Bush is less evil because he launched the invasion with good intentions. But—laying aside the question of whether he actually had the good intentions which he claimed to have—we can all surely agree that if you’re getting beaten to death in Abu Ghraib, blown up by a roadside bomb, shot by Blackwater mercenaries, or caught in the crossfire of sectarian violence, it doesn’t matter if it’s all the fault of someone with good intentions. What matters is results, not intentions.

Fourthly, some will say that other good things came out of Bush’s invasion which balance out the huge number of deaths. As Bush’s decisions have lead to enormous numbers of innocent civilians being imprisoned and tortured, the Iraqi economy being ruined, basic services like electricity and water being cut off, and millions being forced to flee as refugees, it’s difficult to see what those good things might be. A democratic government? Most of Iraq is ruled by sectarian militias, the opposite of democracy. More freedom? A country where any person can be imprisoned, tortured, or killed on any day has no freedom whatever.

Yet even so, most of those who railed against the evil of Saddam continue to ignore the greater evil of Bush and the Republicans. I wish to understand why this is. The only logical explanation I see is that these people believe Saddam was evil because he killed too few Iraqis, and that Bush is therefore better since he killed more. But this is a rather uncharitable explanation, so before I accept that conclusion I’ll turn the floor over to anyone who can explain the apparent contradiction in some other way.

If this is simply a numbers game, then you have to count the 1M people killed in the Iran/Iraq war, which was started by SH.

But then, it would appear that FDR was even eviler. Right?

Simple. Killing, torture, destruction are only evil if non-Americans do it. Anything we do to anybody for any reason is justified, because we are the ones doing it, therefore Bush is morally superior to Saddam. That’s how the majority of Americans think.

In WW II, the Japanese and German governments were destroyed. No anarchy resulted.
A better analogy is Romania. Ceausescu was , like Saddahm Hussein,a cruel dictator who controlled absolutely everything with a ruthless secret police force. In 1989 the government was destroyed, the security forces were disbanded. No anarchy resulted.

Anarchy isn’t an automatic result–it is a conscious choice made by the population.
When Iraqis prefer to kill their own neighbors at Iraqi holy sites and marketplaces, instead of rebuilding their own country, it is not Bush’s fault.

According to IBC, the death toll is ~73,000-80,000 over a 4 year (2003-2007) period. You can only reach your conclusion if you feel that the death toll will remain essentially the same for 8 more years.

BTW, out of curiosity, why are the deaths from the Iraq/Iran war not being used for Saddam’s total? I mean, if you are going to lay essentially combat deaths all on GW’s plate I think its only fair to give Saddam credit for all those who died in a war he started as well…no? In addition there were all the deaths from the Kuait (Gulf War I) invasion…right?

I think your you are attempting to spin the figures to ‘prove’ your theory. If you are going to lay all these deaths (even if we go with your figures deaths) at GW’s feet then you need to be even handed in how you calculate Saddam’s totals as well. The deaths from Saddam’s rise to power haven’t been counted in your total, as well as all the deaths from his attempted invasion of Iran or his attempted anexation of Kuait. It would raise his totals up quite a bit…so I’m curious why you aren’t counting them.

Fair enough. However if this is your criteria it really underscores the fact that you are counting from both sides of your mouth here…i.e. you are using different criteria in an apples to oranges comparison. For instance, those figures you are using? Many of the people who are being tallied as dead weren’t actually killed in combat. Many died of things like disease, medical or food shortages, etc. We could tally up quite a few additional deaths to Saddam (over and above the overlooked deaths during Saddam’s/Ba’athist rise to power, the Iran/Iraq war, Kuait invasion). I seem to recall that something like 3 million children alone died due to the sanctions imposed on Iraq after the first Gulf War. Results, right?
Anyway, I don’t think that ‘evil’ is simply the summ total of the bodies one can lay at the feet of a leader. However, even if this is the metric that you want to use I think you are being intellectually dishonest in your attempt to show that GW has more bodies to his name than Saddam…when you are using different criteria to count those bodies.

YMMV…I’m sure it will be a facinating thread.

-XT

Gonna take a stab here, and guess ITR Champion did not mean that this is a simple numbers game since he mentioned several other points such as cost/benefit ratio. I’m pretty much squarely of the belief that the actions of FDR and the Allied nations preventing the (theoretical) deaths of millions of more Jews as well as ending Nazi Germany’s aggressive expansionist regime were both very good things. As far as cost/benefit ratio is concerned there I would personally put forth that the unfortunate death of so many of our and other nation’s citizens were a necessary cost. I am forced to agree with ITR’s point that the cost is not worth the benefit for the Iraqi citizens or ourselves in regards to the current Iraq war.

I am also forced to agree with Der Trihs’, and state that most touted benefits are largely to make Amercians feel better about our awful decision to undertake this war.

To be fair, I’ve heard (from statements of Iraqi exiles broadcast in the runup to the first Gulf War, for what that’s worth – contemporary reports of Iraqi troops pulling Kuwaiti preemies out of incubators were later debunked as lies) that Hussein actually liked to watch his victims being executed, by painful means such as dunking in vats of acid. I’ve never heard anything like that about Bush.

So you give FDR the benefit of all hypothetical scenarios and deny the same to Bush. You do understand how a comparison works, don’t you?

Whoops, should have read this first. It all makes sense now. Never mind.

Without really touching the question of who is more evil, I have to note that Bush – unlike Saddam, presumably – thinks of himself as “pro-life.” It boggles the mind that he can have created that much suffering and still basically think of himself as being on the side of the angels.

As a matter of fact I do! I did not bother reiterating the points which ITR had already made in regards to the conditions under which many Iraqis live today, not withstanding his error in regards to actual numbers. I happen to agree that the cost in American lives and dollars in addition to the aformentioned general suffering of the Iraqi populace are not worth the “democracy” and “freedom” which we have so graciously bestowed upon them.

I did happen to lay out the reasons why I thought the cost/benefit ratio was worth it in regards to WWII. This is no longer a hypothetical scenario, but an actual one we can look back on. For the most part also a scenario we can pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, IMHO.

I will readily admit that time may prove me wrong in regards to the future prosperity of Iraq, but I will hedge my bets that no amount of effort that the American people and American government is willing to put out at this point will appreciably increase the average Iraqi’s life in Iraq without many years, perhaps decades, of sectarian violence.

I like how you slid that in there. Very subtle. Obviously since Der Trihs has positions which are generally regarded as let’s say… extreme that any point he might make can be disregarded.

To support your assertions, ITR champion, you’ve had to use very questionable logic.

Right, and if I loaned a friend some money, to fix his car, and he instead uses the money to go on a massacre, those deaths are my responsibility?

Imagine I see a boy walk out into a road suddenly, and I see that he’s going to get hit by a car. I run out and shove him out of the way of the car. Unfortunately, the child is injured from his resulting fall, and then I see that the car actually managed to stop in time anyway. Am I evil?

It seems to me that GWB gets flamed far more often on this site than Saddam.
Not that I don’t think he deserves it.

No, he set up a number of counter arguments and shot them down. He said killing is killing, and it doesn’t matter what the intentions were:

And he, accidentally I’m sure, forgot to count the estimated 1M people killed in the Iran/Iraq war.

Possibly because Bush affects us more than Saddam ever could or did.

So let me get this straight. I loan a friend some money as said friend has told me he needs to get his car fixed. Friend goes out buys purchases the necessary accoutrements for a massacre. Friend commits a massacre. This somehow is in any way comparable to The President of the United States gathering information, seletively chosen or not, and launching an invasion of another country based on said information?

ITR isn’t stating that the American public is evil, but rather that Bush is. Bush would be the prepetrator of the massacre in your scenario; the American public would be the only possible entity in the scenario who is the money lender. The responsibility for the deaths lay on those who actively put the events in motion that cause the massacre. Whether or not he is “evil” because of his actions Bush is still just as responsible for those Iraqis deaths as the single person who perpetrated the theoretical massacre. They both knew the consequences going in.

Not true. By your reasoning, had Saddam Hussein stayed in power, he’d have kept killing people. 4 years @ 17,500 people-per-year, that’s 55,000 deaths you have to take off the top.

If you want to blame Bush with a numbers game, use net, not gross.

That’s not all he forgot either. There were the deaths due to Iraq’s invasion of Kuait and the subsequent gulf war, then there were all the deaths due to sanctions that were caused by that same gulf war. And of course I don’t think we are counting all the deaths due to the same criteria used by the guys giving us the 650,000 figure (disease, poor health care, lack of food, the old stand by ‘other’, etc etc).

I never have understood this kind of thing. It’s like some folks just can’t be satisfied with the fact that Bush is a terrible president, that the Iraq war was an obvious disaster and mistake. Nope. They have to paint Bush as Hitler, or compare Bush to Saddam (with Saddam…Saddam!!..coming out on top). And it doesn’t matter what hoops they have to go through or how much hand waving it takes to make the comparison stick…as long as they are satisfied that it does.

I figure we should be hearing from Red Fury (or one of the others like him) soon with a raft of links to anti-American factoids about how evil we are…

-XT

Good point. I just picked out the obvious, and biggest, one.

Agreed. And it’s amazing how much thought the OP obvious put into this, too. It’s a well written OP, not just some “Bush is teh suxXor” type one-liner rant.

Though the data is probably sketchy I’m guessing that the deaths due to the sanctions (using the same criteria used to calculate the US death toll up to 650,000+) would be much higher than even those in the Iran/Iraq war. I seem to recall someone throwing around an estimated figure of 3 million children dead due to the sanctions over the entire period…and this wouldn’t count all the OTHER deaths from adults who died from poor health care, disease, malnutritian, etc.

Well, ITR isn’t one of the run of the mill Bush bashing drones. He is one of the better posters usually. I just think he’s trying to make an apples to oranges comparison…instead of using the same measuring stick for both. I also don’t think that a pure body count comparison really matters in any case, regardless of who has the lower count. And even if Bush isn’t as ‘evil’ as Saddam it doesn’t excuse him in any way. Such a comparison just muddies the water and does poor service to the anti-war crowd when it’s trotted out. IMHO anyway.

-XT

That’s a pretty pathetic excuse. First of all, you clearly haven’t realized the depth of the incompetence of the Bush Administration after the invasion. I suggest watching this movie. Second of all, the few not-completely-wacko people in the Bush Administration like Colin Powell tried to impress upon Bush the dangers of doing what he did and he did it anyway. Being “the decider” means taking responsibility for the consequences of your decisions. Unfortunately, that is hard for a man to grasp who has been shielded from the consequences of his decisions his whole life.

That said, I agree with those who have argued that it is more than a numbers game. And also, that to do the numbers game fairly, you would have to include the Iran-Iraq War in Saddam’s count.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Lancet study looked at excess deaths relative to the pre-war period as a baseline so that would tend to normalize these effects (at least for the version of the sanctions that was in effect before the war which was admittedly less draconian than had been true several years earlier).

You miss the point. If you are willing to grant hypothetcals that will make one side of the equation look good you must do so for the other. Conversely, if you deny one side any benefits of hypotheticals, you must deny the other side, as well.