Well, the easy answer is because they didn’t want to work and play well with us. Why exactly SHOULD we pour money into the other nations in the region Zag? It wouldn’t exactly be a good investment with their attitude towards us you know?
-XT
Which is funny, since, you know, they were colonies of European countries up until the '50s when they were let go to fend for themselves, along with most of Africa.
We all know how much of a genius plan that was.
Why not? What if, instead of cutting them loose completely, the European nations that had them as their colonies invested into them half of what was invested into Israel. I’m talking money, government advisors, the whole deal. Half.
Or are you of a position that Jews are smarter and significantly better at getting by than Arabs?
Well, they weren’t US colonies. Also, shortly after the post colonial period in the ME things became rather dicey for European (and US) companies there. Lots of instability, religious fanaticism, revolutions, strife, etc. Business men like stable situations to invest in…and they like to know that if they DO invest, their property and investment isn’t going to be siezed by the governments there. Someday when you have time, review the history of the various European/US oil companies in the region and what happened to them…then think about why other companies don’t pour money into the region.
Hey, I’m not big fan of European colonialism myself, and I think much of the problem in that region (including the fucked up situation between Israel and Palestine) stems from them. However, its really not as easy as the Europeans simply helping out their former colonies when they gained independance. Its a much more complicated situation. I will conceed though that if Europe had helped out their former colonies a bit more a lot of the mess wouldn’t be what it is today.
Maybe Tamerlain will wander in and talk about this…he’s the expert on the region.
Huh? How do you get here from what I posted Zag?? Israel wasn’t a former colony for one thing…they were already moving towards independance BEFORE they were ‘granted’ it by the UN. The Palestinians weren’t. To broaden things, Israel has gone out of its way to make itself business friendly…as opposed to the majority of the arab states in the region. Israel has patterned themselves along the western model…and infact are basically a western democracy smack dab in the ME. In addition, they have cultivated their relationship with the US…something the US is always keen on, especially during the cold war.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with jews being smarter or better than arabs…it has to do with who is willing to work and play nice with us…and that goes from a political/national perspective as well as a business perspective. If the arabs didn’t have oil they would have nothing at all as far as the western world is concerned…we probably wouldn’t deal with them at all in any meaningful way because they don’t want to really deal with us.
-XT
I see that a thread which starte to be about a specific aspect of the situation has turned into a discussion on all sides of the Israel/Palestine conflict. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
I’ll return to the aspect I’ve adressed before - whether the terrorism label fits or doesn’t fit Israel’s actions. I’ve reread Rune’s post on the term “terrorist state”, and I realise that he’s right (in his first half of that post, anyway). The term “terrorist state” is uneccesary inflammatory, and doesn’t add anything to any debate. I’ll withdraw my description of Israel and USA as terrorist states, and apologise to any Israelis and Americans I offended by using that term.
I still maintain that Israel does use terrorism as a tactic, so my partial retraction might not mean all that much to those who approve of Israel’s actions in the occupied territories. And - still using my last definition of terrorism - so does USA. I’m still not sure about the specific examples John Corrado mentioned, but the bombing of Libya in retaliation to another terrorist attack definitively fits the description. IIRC the US president (I don’t remember which one) made a statement along the lines of “State sponsored terrorism is indefenisible” just after having ordered what amounted to a state sponsored terrorist attack…
Alessan made a thought provoking post in a Pit thread about Fallujah:
Maybe I ought to shift some of my Euro-leftist indignation at the human rights violations committed by Israel to USA.
No. Rather, no point hand-waving about selective portions of the historical context in the (ultimately dishonest) manner you employ, not just in the post I commented on but also following that. You choose to focus on historical tidbits that cast your preference – which is obviously emotionally aligned with the Israeli side – in a favourable light, while you ignore similar counterparts on the Palestinian side, and repeatedly play down both Palestinians and Arabs to bolster your point.
I have no time for this, particularly when I have already shown and argued that both sides have a long history of thoroughly objectionable actions and policies in the exact same region, but that both sides are there on the ground now and are not going to go away just because someone waves some rudimentary history at them. There is a problem here and insistence on selective historical analysis is (as I have stated more than once) not going to move anyone forward, quite the contrary.
How about let’s be constructive, instead of desperately digging around for any possible reason to justify Israeli hardlines? Selectivity is bullshit. It may help out in a pissing competition, but it won’t resolve the issue.
What is that, another loaded question? No one is unbiased. In my particular case I have snippets of bias for particulars of both sides, something that should be obvious should you read my posts in this thread and perhaps even choose to address more substantial arguments. I recognize however that bias will not move things forward, particularly since bias is a central problem to the issues on the ground.
Both sides here have employed inhumane tactics that rely on terror, going back to the OP. If you think your highly selective and biased historical analyses will somehow help clear things up and normalize perceptions, perhaps you could explain how to those who have some experience of these problems.
Your argument ultimately boils down to a few generalizations and collectivisms (Democracy vs non, allies vs non, technologically advanced vs non, etc.). Good for self-comfort perhaps, but utterly useless if you adopt a deeper view, a view that would consider such things as the value of human life and quality thereof in accordance with international treaties, the various factors that drive young men and women to become terrorists, the prospects and hope for the future, international goodwill, and so forth.
Roger: I agree that Israel has every right to exist, having existed now for decades, having a distinct culture and identity and population; however I do not necessarily agree that it has the right to exist along its present borders and presently occupied lands. Again, the details of that are to be negotiated, not assumed a priori as immutable truths.
PaulFitzroy, looks like we’re not there yet, young Padawan.
That’s funny, I for one have travelled extensively in the region and I do not remember it being a third-world helhole by any means. In fact Israel is far from my favourite destination in terms of beauty, culture, entertainment, luxury, and so forth, though it no doubt has its charms and attractions. Maybe I see it that way because I’m a denizen of hell and enjoy visiting hellholes, or perhaps your characterization of the entire region is cheap and inaccurate.
Don’t forget a few things. First, it seems very common for humans to discriminate on a number of bases, including and especially that of homosexuality, and while we should definitely work against such trends we should not condemn a situation out of hand for it. Take a look at Singapore – a state so advanced that it leaves Israel choking on the dust in almost every way – and inspect sections 377 and 377(a) of the penal code, which outlaw “carnal intercourse against the order of nature” and provide punishments ranging up to life imprisonment! And, in South Korea, another prime example of an advanced democracy, technologically miles ahead of Israel and the US and in fact most of the world, homosexuality is still a big no-no. Hellholes? Or merely places where the evolution towards mature sexual outlook has not covered quite as much ground as in a few other places?
Sure, with the recent revival of fundamentalism in recent years (partly a response [the clam effect] to unfettered Israeli actions as well as US interference) this trend of covering up women and putting them in their place may actually be increasing (looking at Egypt the last 15 years, I would definitely say it has); nonetheless if you have a point you may need rather more to make it than such passing references.
Cultural items, young Padawan, gender-role differences and patriarchal expectations that vary greatly from place to place. Israel received considerable input from the rather advanced North-ish Europeans in this regard, but you would find that if, say, Greece had been responsible for setting gender roles you probably would have more repressive cultural norms against women. At any rate, by no means do women throughout the Middle East have to go around covered in black from head to toe, have you even been to the region?? Some do. For some it is a matter of (misguided) choice. For others it is a matter of necessity or peer pressure. It’s a complex issue.
Kids do indeed learn about science and math in school in Muslim countries. In some places, in some parts, they don’t, it’s true – particularly if we are talking about locales that have Madrasas, such as Pakistan, or particularly questionable syllabuses, such as those of some Palestinian schools (and again, one has to recognize that there is a cause for everything, treat the cause rather than the symptom!). But such extremist educational methods are not exactly the norm throughout the MENA.
Are you implying that Arabs are racist murderers who slaughter black people as matter of course? Come on, we don’t need that here. If you are referring in particular to the desperate situation in Sudan, why not exhibit a bit more knowledge as opposed to hand-waving? And you shouldn’t hand-wave until you get your jedi powers anyway, you know that! Otherwise it just looks ridiculous.
I take issue with that as a completely unfair statement. There are many, several, a veritable multitude of different structures to hang people from without the need to restrict yourself to cranes. But seriously, it may happen on occasion that adulterers are excessively punished for doing “what come naturally” (or in some cases merely for being accused of doing so) but it’s not like people are routinely swinging from the gallows throughout MENA, for crying out loud. Even in Saudi Arabia the occurrence is rarer than you think.
What a childishly martial point of view. So, let’s assume that Israel had LOST – would you then be perfectly fine with an approach to oppress all Jews in the region, make them live in refugee camps, deny them the right to “their” land (graciously assuming it actually was theirs at this point), deny them a decent standard of living, hide them behind giant walls, pick away at what little land they have left to live and farm on, routinely attack them, assassinate them, etc., all because of victory in a war?
What a ridiculous notion. I’m glad the Western powers didn’t take that approach with Germany and Japan, or goodness knows the trouble we would have today with German and japanese terrorism.
Zagadka, I don’t know where you are going, but if you are indeed suggesting that Israel should simply cease to exist, what on earth should be done with its millions of Jewish citizens? Israel, on a bigger scale, is a similar problem to that of Kosovo. Yes, Kosovo is properly Serbian land and undoubtedly belongs to the Serbian state, but there has been a substantial ethnic Albanian population there for a considerable time – much longer than there has been a state of Israel in fact. The ethnic Albanians complained they were not granted the same rights as Serbs, and started demanding autonomy and independence. Should they have been all forcibly relocated? Should the Serb military have slaughtered them until they evacuated Kosovo? In the Kosovo affair, both sides tried to be strongmen (the Serbs thanks to the idiocy and lies of Milosevic, the ethnic Albanians mostly and sadly represented by the foul KLA pieces of shit), and Serbia ultimately paid for it – with Kosovar Serbians paying the highest price in the long run, kicked out of their own rightful lands. One would hope there is at least the glimmer of a chance to learn from past mistakes…
Hildea, the US-Iraq situation almost makes China’s invasion, occupation, and annexation of Tibet look like a wholesome and honest affair…
Agree with this, too. Jerusalem is likely to be very contentious, and not being a great fan of the UN, I’m unsure what solution would actually work there. As for the composition of a Palestinian state, the fact that Gaza is cut off geographically from the West Bank is another problem. How can a nation thus divided effectively achieve optimal cohesion quickly?