Is it just me or are certain African American groups racist?

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

God damn it, this will be the sixth time I hit submit. What the fuck does “Invalid thread specified” mean?

@catsix

Holy shit you’re fucking dense.

It doesn’t matter why those states felt that the interests of the federal government no longer matched their own and wanted to leave the Union, what matters is that they did want to leave the Union, and that they fought for the ability to do just that.

So the reasons behind an action don’t matter if, hypothetically, that action could be undertaken for positive results? If I kill my family because I don’t like them, will you wear a T-shirt with my face on it because someday, you might have to kill an intruder?

The South no longer felt that the federal government was doing anything effective for it, and wanted to leave. The ‘Stars-and-Bars’ battle flag represents the fight to secede, at least to me, and has not one goddamn thing to do with slavery or black people.

Who cares what it represents to you? It sure as hell had something to do with slavery and black people when it was the battle flag of the Confederacy. There is no other context. The single historical purpose of that emblem was to identify soldiers fighting to preserve the right to keep slaves. If I tell you that I wear a Klan hood because it reminds me of a scene in Fletch Lives, does that excuse me from the clear message of hatred I’m broadcasting?

The question of whether a state or group of states can leave the Union because the interests of the federal government no longer matches their own has, sadly, been answered in the negative, and I consider that a major sore point in the history of my country.

That’s the lesson you take from the Civil War? I consider that a major idiot point in the history of shit you’ve said.

[UncleBill]

LouisB
I’ve said this until I’m blue in the face, but I’m gonna try once more: The Stars and Bars flag that people persist in calling the “Confederate Flag” is not, cannot be, and never was the flag of the Confederate States of America. It was a fucking battle standard and that’s all it was. Why do you persist in calling it the “Confederate Flag?” Why do you give it a legitimancy it shouldn’t have?

Isn’t it the Naval Jack also? And first? The more common battle standard was square, with the exception of the Army of Tennessee, Dec 1863-1865. Just in the interest of Fighting Ignorance, and all.

And is not the “African Flag” representative of all those Africans who sold their rival tribe members into Slavery in the first place? A Flag can represent any ideal, good or bad, and can be defended from both sides.

[Zebra]

Am I the only person wondering where **saluki_fan ** is?

[Munch]

@Zebra

Am I the only person wondering where **saluki_fan ** is?

Nope. But after his moronic comment to Airman Doors, I’m not surprised he hasn’t come back to eat crow.

[monstro]

@UncleBill

And is not the “African Flag” representative of all those Africans who sold their rival tribe members into Slavery in the first place? A Flag can represent any ideal, good or bad, and can be defended from both sides.

That doesn’t mean one side isn’t embarrassingly stupid, though.

[Ogre]

It doesn’t matter why those states felt that the interests of the federal government no longer matched their own and wanted to leave the Union, what matters is that they did want to leave the Union, and that they fought for the ability to do just that. The South no longer felt that the federal government was doing anything effective for it, and wanted to leave. The ‘Stars-and-Bars’ battle flag represents the fight to secede, at least to me, and has not one goddamn thing to do with slavery or black people.

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT.

Your fucking “symbol of states rights” is soaked in blood. It’s filthy with the sweat of millions of African slaves. It is completely, totally, irretrievably, irredeemably tainted now and for all time.

Tamerlane was totally right to compare the case with the Swastika. Yes, the swastika once stood for something totally different, but its association with the attempted extermination of the Jews, the brutal invasion of Europe, and the Allied lives lost reclaiming Europe from the Nazis has ruined it for all time.

FIND A NEW SYMBOL. It’s as simple as that. How about the flag of the Free Republic of Winston? How about “Don’t Tread On Me?” There are lots and lots of potential symbols that could be used that don’t immediately alienate EVERY FUCKING BLACK PERSON IN THE COUNTRY.

Are you too goddamned stupid to see that perhaps some black folks might agree with your states’ rights stance, but that they’re completely left out in the cold by the use of a filthy, rotten symbol like the Confederate Flag?

[Miller]

@UncleBill

And is not the “African Flag” representative of all those Africans who sold their rival tribe members into Slavery in the first place? A Flag can represent any ideal, good or bad, and can be defended from both sides.

No, I’m pretty sure it’s not, and for all sorts of reasons. First, did any of the African tribal cultures involved in the supply-side of slavery use flags at all? And even if they did (which seems unlikely to me, but what do I know?), then only that particular flag would have that symbolism, not just any flag that happens to come from the same continent.

As for what the Confederate flag “means,” while I do have some sympathy for folks like Machetero or catsix who want to use the stars ‘n’ bars as a symbol for Southern pride, y’all got to face the fact that that vast majority of people on this planet who recognize that flag are going to associate it with slavery and racism, including a fair number (if not an out-and-out majority) of the other people flying it. And, just like in language, meaning is ultimatly determined by the majority. If you want to fly the Confederate battle flag, fine. Just don’t act shocked when most people who see it assume you’re a racist because of it. Because as much as you might complain and argue to the contrary, the fact is, that flag means racism.

[Skywatcher]

@LouisB

Which doesn’t alter the fact that the flag in question was never the “Confedarate Flag.”

Not by itself, no.

[Captain_Amazing]

Maybe the Confederate Battle Flag meant racism in the 1860s, and maybe it didn’t, but it sure did in the 1950s and '60s, when southern states started adding the symbol to their state flags to protest integration. And maybe it’s not fair that the flag is seen as a racist symbol now, but it is. So, it seems, catsix, not wanting to be mistaken for a racist, and not wanting to offend, it would be polite to use another symbol.

[lissener]

Ultimately, the OP’s question is moot.

Racism as “practiced” by people who lack power is speech, not conduct. Racism, when backed up by power, becomes conduct, and thus is no longer merely speech.

That’s the primary difference, IMHO, between white racists and black racists in the U.S.

When you can impose your racist beliefs on others–when racist beliefs inform policy and become practical forces in the lives of others–that’s Racism. When you have no political power, and thus your views can inform nothing but the speeches you give from your soapbox, that’s racism.

This is why I think the constitutuion distinction between speech and conduct is a good thing, and acts as one of the many checks and balances built into our system.

The majority does not need protection from the minority; it’s the other way around.

[lissener]

**

@lissener

constitutuion

**???

constitutional

[silenus]

In the end, it helps to remember that the Stars and Bars, Battle Flag, et al are the flags of losers, period.

South lost, yes?

And don’t give me any crap. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, and I honor tham…but they were WRONG!

[tomndebb]

I had intended to agree that some black groups are racist. We can find examples of racism by blacks among the leadership (at least) of the Nation of Islam. We can find other examples of racism among pseudo-scholars who attempt to distort history through an “Afro-Centrism” that is so ludicrous in its claims that everything in the world was invented or discovered by sub-Saharan Africans that it actually mocks itself in its pretensions.

However, what do we find in the OP? One more silly rant about how “they” can have a club and we can’t (which, for numerous reasons, is simply wrong) or we get to fight over the symbolism of a piece of cloth.

So, based on the content of the OP, I would have to conclude
It’s just you.

[LonesomePolecat]

@lissener

Ultimately, the OP’s question is moot.

Racism as “practiced” by people who lack power is speech, not conduct. Racism, when backed up by power, becomes conduct, and thus is no longer merely speech.

That’s the primary difference, IMHO, between white racists and black racists in the U.S.

When you can impose your racist beliefs on others–when racist beliefs inform policy and become practical forces in the lives of others–that’s Racism. When you have no political power, and thus your views can inform nothing but the speeches you give from your soapbox, that’s racism.

The distinction seems trivial, even non-existent, to me. It assumes that blacks and their political allies lack all political power whatsoever. That obviously is not the case. What is more, it ignores the millions of whites who themselves live in poverty and lack political power. The assumption that all whites are privileged merely because they’re white is itself a racist notion.

Take for example a white guy living in a run-down trailer park who flips burgers at McD’s for a living, and whose wife does house cleaning when she can get the work (the situation of friends of mine). How much political power do you think such people really have?

@lissener

The majority does not need protection from the minority; it’s the other way around.

Ptooey. History abounds in examples of minorities who have oppressed majorities. The mere fact that a group of people (whether defined by race, ethnicity, class or religion) is a minority does not by any means mean that they are oppressed and need protection from the majority; it may well be that the majority needs protection from them. Hell, the oppression of the majority is practically the definition of tyranny. In feudal Europe, a minority (the nobility) ran roughshot over the majority (the serfs and peasants); I would say it was the commoners who needed protection from the nobility, not the other way around. Quite recently, the Sunni minority in Iraq lorded it over the Shi’ite majority. Were the Sunnis oppressed simply because they were the minority? Did they need protection from the Shi’ites?

All too often, what a minority really wants is the power to bully the majority.

[Master_Wang-Ka]

But if you can’t acknowledge that the confederate flag is irredeemably tainted by its association with slavery and inherently offensive to a large group of people, you are either:

a) a racist

b) an asshole

c) stupid

d) clueless

You forgot:

e) stubborn

f) (pick any combo of “stubborn” and previous answers)

As to the argument that “white people deserve it because of what their ancestors did to ours,” screw that and screw you, charley. I never oppressed anyone in my life, and I had as much to do with building a society that may or may not be “inherently oppressive” as you did. Pissing in my face for being white is no less racist than it would be if I was the one doin’ the pissin’.

As to the Confederates question: Gee, how many of those southern good ole boys owned slaves? I know for a fact that most Confederate soldiers did not.

But, you say, they were fighting for the right to own slaves if they somehow managed to do so!

Well, actually, a pretty good case could be made against that, as well. Keep in mind the nature of conscription, and the social climate at the time. Joining the army to uphold slavery is one thing. Joining the army in order to avoid being lynched as a coward, or because one has been drafted, is another matter entirely.

Me, I’m a southerner, but I’m easygoing; far as I’m concerned, the Civil War is history. I certainly didn’t fight in it, although I had ancestors who did. To me, the Confederate flag, battle standard, whateverthehell, is the flag of a country that never actually technically existed, save in the hearts of those who wanted it, and the hearts of those who romanticized the hell out of it many years after the fact.

…but if it offends, well, peachy, take it the hell down. It ain’t my flag, and I feel no great urge to fight for it, any more than I would the flag of Venezuela.

Then again, racist asshats have never used the flag of Venezuela to intimidate modern-day nonwhite folks, or as symbols of violent redneck idiocy. At least, not that I’m aware of.

Lastly, the OP: yeah, there are lots of nonwhite groups that are racist; I’ve encountered several. Never actually met one that would ADMIT to it, though; at best, I could name a group that claimed that it was not possible for nonwhites to be racist – only whites could be racist, because only whites could discriminate against nonwhites.

…which gives you a clue of what I think of such organizations, right there…

[Guinastasia]

@silenus

In the end, it helps to remember that the Stars and Bars, Battle Flag, et al are the flags of losers, period.

South lost, yes?

And don’t give me any crap. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, and I honor tham…but they were WRONG!

Thank you. That’s one reason why I don’t get the love of the rebel flag. Hello, the Confederacy LOST! It’s a symbol of a bunch of LOSERS.

So, you could call it a flag that represents failure and treason. Yes, I said treason. Technically, it was, at least in my eyes.

catsix, what right to secede? There’s no such thing.

So basically whenever I see someone waxing nostalgic over Dixie and the Rebel Flag, I have this urge to roll my eyes. It just looks pathetic. It’s been what-150 years? You LOST. Get over it already. It was a stupid cause, anyways.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Guinastasia

It was a stupid cause, anyways.

Risking once again the possibility of being accused of racism (like that’s never happened), I think I’ll take a stab at this one.

In retrospect, it seems like it was a stupid cause. Slavery as an institution was just plain wrong. But you have to keep the secession in perspective. The South, as it were, was predominantly an agricultural society. They saw the abolition of slavery as a threat to their regional economy, since farming is now and always has been a very difficult way to make a living, and paying hordes of workers would have potentially been disastrous. Contrast that with the North, which had become very industrialized and therefore more able to pay for labor costs.

I’ve read in many places that slavery was expensive in and of itself, and I’ve read that slavery was being phased out in short order regardless, so it could be that their fears were misguided. Add into the mix that the slavery issue was basically 50/50 pro/con, and you have a ready made formula for the Civil War.

But hey, what do I know? I’m not an historian like gobear. [/end backhand jibe at elitism]

[tomndebb]

They saw the abolition of slavery as a threat to their regional economy

And. . . .?

Lincoln had not advocated abolition in his campaign and there was no movement afoot to draft abolition legislation. The South seceeded without even having been threatened with actual abolition, only with the (well founded) supposition that they would not be allowed to expand slavery into new territories.

[litost]

It’s not just you. It’s you and other deliberately obtuse individuals. Seriously, if a college going student in this day and age can’t understand why White Pride is not equivalent in essence to Black Pride, then s/he is being deliberately obtuse bordering on racism. Everytime I hear of someone bringing up the race issue w.r.t clubs in schools and universities, it’s ALWAYS to stir shit up. Never with the constructive purpose which many of these minority orgs serve.

If you want to discuss the merits of affirmative action and when it should be phased out, that’s a legit debate but let’s not mask this nonsense as a debate. “Reverse Racism”, my ass.

[gobear]

@Airman Doors

But hey, what do I know? I’m not an historian like gobear. [/end backhand jibe at elitism]

If you want to call knowing what I’m talking about and backing up my posts with citations from primary sources “elitist,” as opposed to spewing uninformed nonsense like Catsix did, fine by me. BTW, you wrote a good, well-thought-out post.

Looks like I made the right decision to swear off Dopefests. People I think of as friends turn out not to be.