Is it me or society? (somewhat long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Marriage…

are my feelings about it my very own or are they something society has pounded into my brain from my earliest memories to the present moment as something we women “want”? Is marriage the only way to feel truly wanted, loved, desired, and cherished by a man? If my SO doesn’t propose, does this mean he doesn’t truly love me? Or express the idea of “true love” or being “soul mates”?

Background: I had a bad first marriage and without going into details, I’m will not rush into another but…

(yup, always a but)

I feel it’s still an option. I know for a fact that I do NOT want to be alone when I’m old. Is marriage the only way to have stability later in life, as well as, passion or has society just brainwashed me into this way of thinking? I’m honestly confused and while I’m not asking for facts or statistics or insults ahem, I just had to post this or go insane. For the record, I’m into monogamy, that IS absolutely vital to any relationship I’m in. Can one have total committed monogamy while not being married? Do I have too many doubts to comfortably trust in a lasting relationship without being married?

I want to grow old with my SO (not that anyone really needs to know this about me, just posting this to clear my head) and I think he wants to grow old with me because he talks about the future all the time. He does not use the word “marriage” and that started my musings about whether my feelings are really mine. I should be discussing this with him and I will, it just sort of came on recently and I’m trying to clarify exactly what I want. There are some truths I must acknowledge; I need monogamy, I will get old, and I DO NOT want to be alone later in life. That stated, I want to sort out my other thoughts and feelings.
I didn’t know exactly where to post this and if this isn’t the proper place for it, I’ll understand if it gets moved.

2

Does this have anything to do with the -ahem- oral sex thread? IANAD, but I’m thinking you might have one or two intimacy issues.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a stable, loving, monogamous relationship should be any less valid without a particular label attached.

3

I didn’t think so… at first. It does boil down to trust, right, so perhaps it ties in. I know that I want to grow old with him though, that’s not the problem. I am some kind of lame that I post this here and wait to talk to him about it sigh. OTOH, I don’t want to scare him off if marriage freaks him out (he has previously mentioned that he’s not ready but I don’t know if it’s just an issue of too soon or if he’s totally against it… again, I need to just talk to him and without judgement, tell him what I’m thinking) but I also need to know if marriage is my own idea or something hammered into my head as “proper” and what women “want” from the moment of birth.

One thing I’d like to add is that I never planned my dream wedding in my head, like some of my friends did (which IS NOT a bad thing, BTW). I told my mom when I was in high school that I wan’t planning on getting married so, as you can hopefully see, I’m not obsessed with it. My parents divorced when I was eight and it was traumatic BUT so was my home life even without adding divorce to it. My father was abusive, verbally and physically. This probably has a lot to do with things, I’ll admit. My ex-husband was the same way. I have low self-esteem, add that too.

Not all marriages even fit into my neat, lil’ proper stereotypical idea, either, and I know this. Open marriages go against my true nature and I won’t ever consider such a thing but that’s just me, and saying so may display the jealous side of me but I’m being honest. I don’t care about anyone else but me and my SO. He also favors monogamy, else I’d not be with him.

One more factoid to add; my first major relationship lasted seven years. Halfway through, we got on the subject of marriage and he told me he didn’t think he could marry me. Later, he claimed his wording was wrong after I got seriously upset and hurt by his comment. Men’s and women’s differing perspective is still a lesson I’m learning. He had every right to say what he felt but back then I took it as “I don’t want you or love you enough” BUT this was a complete overreaction. I should have realized how much I had scared him by mentioning it. Everyone assumed we’d marry by how serious we were. I shouldn’t have gotten so serious at such a young age but live and learn, right? It almost ruined our relationship but magically, I got over it (maybe).

Thankfully, I can talk to my SO but I’m a little wary to bring this subject straight up, seemingly out of the blue. He’s pretty fearless on some things but what if this is his breaking point? I can’t let it just eat at me and if we break up over it, at least I’ll know I was being honest. I do think in worst-case scenarios far too often for my own good, btw. BLAH! I ramble too much, too!

4

It is certainly NOT just you…

I’m male, 50+, never married - even males get that pressure (which may explain divorce rates).

My first thought when reading this was an ancient (by US standards, the rest of you stop snickering) folk song, sung as a lament:

“I never will marry,
I’ll be no man’s wife.
I expect to live single,
All the days of my life”

(plug: look up the Weavers (folk group, blacklisted in the 50’s because of thier politics - Pete Seeger, Ronnie Gilbert are/were the last remaning members).

But yes, you need to examine your motives - fear of being old and alone is quite common, but - what other factors are in play? Family pressures? (I live 2500 miles from my birthplace - that was NOT accidental). Ticking clock?

Talk to him make; no demands, threats - just “how do you view our lives together”

5

There is no pressure from my family unless you count my mother wanting me to “marry rich” but she knows I’m not like that. There is no ticking clock, I already have a child, as does he. I don’t want another baby, one child is quite enough but I’ll admit that my fear of having another autistic child, whether unfounded or not, might have something to do with that.

Mainly and most importantly, I enjoy being with my SO. We’ve talked about living together quite a few times but right now, it’s a financial thing that prevents us from doing so. He is a committed guy, loyal and loving so that’s not an issue (except when I get into my worst-case mode and assume I don’t deserve love or that he’s not making me a priority when it’s really just my low self-esteem taking over, or maybe PMSing - stupid hormones!). Past experiences have colored my opinion of men, NOT that I hate men… I don’t. I unfairly assume he’s going to react, think, say, and do things that some of my past SO’s have done to me. It’s unfair and slowly, I’m learning that he IS different and a good guy. I’ve had the bad, I want the good… thank all the Gods that ever were that he’s a great guy. I’m very lucky. He’s extremely patient; again, thank God. He knows all about my past relationships, which helps us both.

Trying to delve into the reasons for my confusion isn’t easy. Not knowing from whence the feelings and thoughts truly stem, is making me nuts. All I really know is that I want a monogamous man to grow old with, specifically my SO. Yes, I know that talking to him is the best course of action and I will. I’m thinking of writing out my thoughts first, to gain some semblance of coherent order. I don’t want to bombard him, guilt trip him, scare him, or command him. And getting my head in order will hopefully reveal what it is I’m really want for the future. That said, don’t think I’m unhappy. I’m very happy… I’m just confused.

6

Brushing aside the fact that I don’t know you at all, you present an extremely clear picture of your thought process, and from what I can tell, the answer will present itself to you fairly rapidly.

The fact that you actually question whether or not the idea of “marriage” has been beaten into you means that it has not. You appear to want to make the right decision for the right reasons (yours and your SO’s), and you seem to be well on your way to doing so.

Discussing marriage with men can be trying, especially if they’ve had a previous experience with it that didn’t work out so well. Then again, from what you say about him, it probably won’t be too bad. Since you’ve discussed living together, he’s obviously not commitment-shy, and he may not be marriage-shy either.

Having read some of your previous posts, you always come across as clear headed and focused, and I suspect your discussion with your SO would follow that same tack. Writing out what you want and expect in order to get your ducks in a row is an excellent idea. I think Extraneous has it right: Just discuss the future, openly and honestly, and see what you both want out of it. It’s always better to know, and 99% of the time, you look back and wonder what the hell you were so worried about.

Good luck to both of you! Or all four of you, I guess.

The Spider Bunch,
The Spider Bunch,
That’s the waaaaaaaaaaay
We became the
Spider Bunch!

7

Well, I don’t see any reason why you two couldn’t just promise each other to stay faithful and stay together. No reason you have to promise it to the state or to God. Though marriage does make legal and financial things easier at times.

Obviously marriage is no guarantee that you’ll grow old together. Abandonment and death happen, marriage or no. So that’s all a crapshoot.

Sounds to me like what you are looking for is a promise from your SO to stick around. How much you want that backed up - by legal document or not - is what you’ll have to decide before asking him what he thinks. I suppose if I was in your shoes, I’d tell him what I was hoping for and ask him if he could agree on that course of action, in his own time, with no pressure.

8

[The Princess Bride]
Mawwiage…
[/The Princess Bride]

Well, that’s basically what marriage is, isn’t it? Except that you’re promising this in front of (pick one or more: your families, your friends, your community, God, Society, the state), and having some sort of ceremony to solemnize the commitment.

And for each person, “marriage” has acquired some connotations and associations, some positive and some negative, based on your own personal past experience and what you’ve seen around you. So that just calling it “marriage” is going to tap into all sorts of feelings and expectations for you and your SO that may or may not be justified. (I, not having been married myself but coming from a family background where most people, including my parents, have had long and successful marriages, probably have a different gut reaction to the idea of being married because of that than you or your SO do.)

FWIW, I’m a guy (35 years old), and I do want to get married (but only to the right person, and unfortunately she hasn’t come along yet)—for some of the reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread as well as others (for instance, I want to have kids and I want them to have a stable home). So when (or if?) I reach that point in my life, the question will not be “Do I want to get married?” but “Is this the person I should marry?” and “Am I ready yet to marry them?”

9

And here I’d thought I was all over the place with my rambling, meandering posts. :stuck_out_tongue:

My own parents’ marriage was a failure, my first marriage was a failure but obviously someone in each of these examples wasn’t the right one for the other. No real fault to either person. My ex-husband just needs a Miss Satan to match his cruel and evil ways ;). I know of some couples that I feel shouldn’t be married. They basically are married in name only, they barely tolerate each other. It’s like aloof room mates. This best describes my mother’s current relationship. Her second marriage I consider a failure, as well. Without giving away too much dirty laundry, their sexual appetites are completely different but I chalk that up to their ages. My mother was never a sexual adventurer; to hear her talk, sex is just sort of there, it’s the way she was raised. Libido? What libido? Fortunately, I took my own lead in this arena so my appetite is just fine.

Even if my SO gave me his most sacred and solemn word that he will never leave me, Life has other plans that we won’t know about until the time comes. Death comes no matter how much you love and want the other person. Disease and accidents surface whenever they wish. I’m not asking for Fate to give my SO and I a break, even if I wish I could. I’m speaking strictly of his love and interest in me, and mine in him.

If I had a guarantee of his commitment until one of us dies, then that ceremony would not be an issue at all. He speaks of our future often, plans he wants to make, things he wants us to do. This does make me feel good, I can’t lie. If he brought up marriage, as in asking for my hand, it would still make me pause a moment. I’d still have to ask myself some questions but I kind of think it wouldn’t take me long to say yes. Again, is it me or society wanting me to get married?

How about this for some clarification:

I say YES to commitment. I say YES to monogamy. I say YES to a lasting relationship if everything is compatible and mutual.

I sometimes think that the wedding industry (and it IS an industry), just like the greeting card/jewelers industries, really brainwash people the moment they leave the womb. “Nuclear family” just doesn’t apply sometimes in the real world.

10

I should think this would be relatively easy to answer. If he did ask you, would you want to say yes, or would you think you should say yes?

I think most humans are innately hopeful, and marriage represents the fervent wish and hope that there will be a lifelong loving commitment between two people. I think as social creatures, wanting love and companionship is natural, and while there can be commercial advantage taken of that natural desire, it has to be there in the first place in order to be exploited. We already know that marriage doesn’t always work the way we want it to, but there sure are lots of people giving it a try anyway, even after multiple failures.

I have a friend who has been married three times and I know if she was asked again, she would do it. I’m not sure I would, but she’s never lost the belief that there can be that perfect lifetime commitment out there. I know with her it has nothing to do with wanting to be dependent on anyone, or having to be. She’s very bright, very capable and a lot of fun to be around. She just is, for good or ill, an incurable romantic.

11

I can’t help thinking something as I read this thread: your question of 'Can we grow old together without being married?" seems to be one that homosexuals (except in Canada, these days :D) deal with as a matter of course. And they do have long-term stable monogamous relationships.

And, as you have noted, some people do get married and do not live long happy lives together.

My opinion: Marriage isn’t fundamentally linked to long-term stable happy relationships. Your own choice comes out of your individual circumstances (eg if your religious beliefs couldn’t let you live with someone without getting married, or if an outdated legal system won’t let you marry, for instance).

And, importantly, marriage is not a magic bullet that will solve problems in your relationship. If the problems are there, marriage will not solve them. (I don’t think anyone’s suggested this so far, but I know an alarming number of people who seem to believe this is so).

And, if I may, SanguineSpider, you seem awfully cool and grounded. Trust your instincts and don’t settle for anything !

12

Well, how do you look at marriage? I’m guessing you don’t exactly see it as being all sunshine and roses and big puffy dresses and happy little bluebirds singing to soft, fluffy bunnies, and that says to me that you’re not buying into the wedding industry’s hype. If that’s the case, and you still want to be married, then you’re wanting what you truly want, not what they want you to want. (Did that last sentence make any sense?)

Sometimes, a lot of times, what we really want isn’t what society and advertising tells us we want. People have a pretty easy time accepting this, especially the sort of people who tend to gravitate toward this board. What is sometimes harder to accept is that sometimes what we really want and what society tells us we want overlap. It goes against what we’re used to and makes us question ourselves. Personally, I think the very act of questioning means that we’re not just blindly following society’s dictates. If that was the case, we wouldn’t be thinking about it, we’d just do it, right?

13

I will admit to having a romantic idea of true love.

I know it’s mainly just a fantasy but I am a sentimental type. I define true love as total commitment and monogamy along with passion, excitement, and one man for one woman always. No other person would do, kind of deal. And they’d ride off into the sunset together forever. Not saying though that bad things won’t happen just that the man would strive to conquer all odds to keep his woman and make her happy, same going for the woman… ok, I know I sound hokey but it’s very romantic. I don’t want to call it chivalrous, persay, but it does have similar aspects. I’m not talking about courtly love because loving an unattainable person from afar (knights and their paramours) just does not satisfy and I’m no lady of the court anyway. As sweet and gentlemanly as it sounds.

So, I want a form of true love. I want romance. I want my SO. Not that I couldn’t have a change of heart years from now but I honestly can’t see that happening anytime soon. He’s a wonderful guy and he wants me. I don’t need to hear him say he loves me everyday, I don’t require a phone call or email daily to have faith in him. Logically, I know he’s not going anywhere. When my hormones get all wonky, that’s when I doubt but he’s still there for me, being patient and loving. IF I can have this love I want, then I may not need that piece of paper as a validation of my feelings. I’ll let you know what comes of our conversation…

14

There was an oral sex thread, and I missed it?

But seriously, folks…

A question I could never satisfactorily answer was this:

“If both persons are willing to commit to each other over a lifetime, then why NOT get married?”

First of all, to heck with marriage, though. What do you want a man around for? We’re dirty, smelly, and opinionated. We have awful habits, which we use as bonding exercises with each other, and reinforce in one another to reassure ourselves as to our own masculinity. We don’t think like women do.

Why do you want one? Especially for a lifetime committment? I mean, we’re worse than St. Bernards in the long run.

…and if you say something along the lines of “I found a special one,” or even “I WANT a special one,” well, that’s fine. As to whether society or genetics or something PROGRAMMED you to want one, well I dunno. Known plenty of women who got along fine without one, and seemed okay with it.

Sounds to me, though, like you HAVE one already, and that he’s pretty special. This is perfectly all right. It also sounds like you know your own mind, as to what you want out of the relationship. That’s okay, too. You want some security. You wanna grow old by his side, as opposed to someone else’s, or by yourself. You want monogamy.

These aren’t unreasonable desires.

Seems like this just leaves the issue of discussing it with him, is all. I would go so far as to say that if you could NOT discuss something like this with him, that would be a danger sign…

15

That biological clock. You’ve mentioned that you have an autistic child: are you perhaps having conflicting emotions about wanting a normal child and fear of bringing another autistic child into the world?

16

Before I found out my daughter had autism, I had given it some thought and I had plenty of time to get pregnant before she was diagnosed. It’s not all about my fear of having another child with a disability, I never really saw myself as having more than one child, in all honesty.

My SO wishes my daughter was his, he has said this several times. He enjoys playing with her, as I’ve mentioned he has a child of his own. He never married the mother because she wasn’t someone he felt he could be with for awhile. She’s a bit unstable and my SO has his son most of the time due to her odd and somewhat neglectful behaviors. They were dating, they got pregnant, and she moved into his place. Then she started going out all the time and leaving the baby home with dad, asking him for cigarette and bar money, and then cheated on him. She was on medication, too, at one point but since she doesn’t work, can’t afford it all the time. The son suffers her constant smoking and her inability to remain in one place long enough for him to make and KEEP friends. I love his son and I hate to see him go through this crap with his mom but I never speak about her in front of him, it’s not my right. I just treat him as well as I can when he’s with us.

My SO and I had a pregnancy scare a two years ago and I truly think he was disappointed when it turned out I was just off my cycle. He wanted to have another baby so his son would have siblings but the age difference now would be hard but he made some comments to the effect that a baby would have been wonderful news. Still… I don’t know if I could handle another one, my daughter requires a lot of one-on-one therapy and playtime is full of teaching her the skills she needs. I may sound torn about this but I’m really not. Together, we have two kids already regardless of parentage so it works for me. His son made me a card during school saying he wished I was his real mother. We’re very close!

In some ways, I do consider our bond just as strong and loyal as a marriage. When we’re able to move in together, that will help me with those times I get irrational and hormonal, and become the Queen Literal of PMS. I don’t get bitchy persay, just take everything way too seriously… not a good time to make bad relationship jokes in my presence or tease me. My SO tells me at those times that I need to just relax and have faith in him, he’s not like my exes. He has put up with a few things that some guys would’ve walked away from, to be fair to him. All in all, a good guy that I was lucky to find. I’m not saying he’s perfect, no one is and he knows his own faults but I’m lucky that he’s got a healthy outlook on life and prefers an intelligent woman.

Again, I ramble. Forgive the length of my posts, folks, and thanks for all the responses.

(still writing out my thoughts, I get distracted too easily)

17

Of course, living together for so long is a common-law marriage. I don’t remember just how long it is, but I’m sure it’s longer than you care to wait around on this question.

18

And would a ceremony guarantee anything? Nyah! Those insecurities have a way of creeping back in. And even if you have a happy marriage, you may not grow old together. These things are beyond our ability to insure.

Yes, marriage was drilled into our heads – at least for my generation it was. (I was born during WWII.) But many of us would have chosen it anyway. Only you can know the answer to that.

I had self-esteem problems for so-o-o-o long. I didn’t realize how much it colored everything. I couldn’t let go and live with uncertainty and still enjoy myself. I think that I hear a lot of that in what you are saying.

Writing it out is a great idea! So is finding some help for your esteem problems. (Have you ever read Revolution from Within? (That one was particularly helpful to me.) Do those things which make you happy. Encourage him to do those things which make him happy. Practice living in the moment and answers will come to you at their own pace.

I always tend to give way too much advice. These are things that work well for me.

Most of all, trust yourself. I see I’m not the only one who has noticed that you have very good instincts.

19

I’d recommend reading The Subversive Family. It changed the way I viewed marriage, especially historically. It’s a fairly easy read and quite thought-provoking.

As a couple gets older, the practical reasons for marriage become more important IMHO, especially as regards medical consent and inheritance.

20

If you have any doubts about marriage per se, then don’t do it.

It may be that your relationship enters a space where you do want to get married; do it then.

If not, then don’t, or (as <b>don’t mind me</b> suggests) marry privately in front of a JP to get the legal benefits.

But you seem to have this figured out already :wink: