Your argument is emontionally based, and overly simplistic. Basically, because of what some whites have done, you seem to have the opinion: Minority = Good, White = Bad.
I’m sure you’ve heard that when you act like those you hate, you become no better than they are.
you say emotionally based as if emotions are a bad thing
emotions come from the stem of our brains and are our most primal of instincts. To pretend that one can rule them out i think might be a bit naive. And your white guilt (“because of what some whites have done”) is every bit as emotionally based as my opinion
but that’s not the point,
The point of my last message is quite the contrary of what you think,
my opinion isn’t minority=good etc…
in fact, i don’t think i ever evaluated anyone in terms of good, bad, etc.
my question was: If we do not allow minorities to behave in harmful ways toward whites (i apologize for the crudeness in terms here), are we holding them to a higher standard of behavior than that to which we hold ourselves?
non-minorities know what it is to wield social power over minorities, and, the enlightened ones know from experience that it is wrong.
Should we deny minorities the experience and the decision, just make that decision for them?
Isn’t that just another form of disempowerment?
greck:
I am white. I have never owned slaves. I have never raped anyone, killed anyone, or even used a racial slur. You, however, have called white people as a whole murderers, rapists, robbers, slave owners, and bigots.
You definition of the term “whitey” blames ME for crimes that I did not commit. Nobody even knows for sure whether I have any ancestors who committed such crimes, if that’s at all relevant. Using the term “whitey” accuses me of murder, rape, theft, and a host of other heinous crimes I would never commit; it demonizes me. That is far, FAR worse than ANY other racial slur.
That hardly seems to be merely “making fun of” white people. That’s a downright attempt to create a cycle of hatred.
Do you know what minorities can do to feel “superior”? It’s not retribution. It’s abandoning the cycle of racism NOW, with no demand for payback; only peace and equality.
Greck, my white guilt? Huh? I don’t feel guilty for being white.
In fact, that’s the whole point. Nobody chooses to be dark or light skinned. I have no say in my color. I didn’t choose to be white, I didn’t choose to be male, I didn’t choose to have a European ancestry, so I don’t take pride, or shame, in my color, race, gender, or anything else I have no control over. I only take pride or shame in my words and deeds. And that’s the whole point.
Also, you don’t make things better by lowering standards. Think about it this way. If it’s ok for minorities to be rude and disrespectful to whites, then in the future, if whites become a minority, will it be ok for us to then be disrespectful to people of color? Or what about other countries where whites are the minority? Are they allowed to treat the majority any way they feel like? Sadly, your line of thinking doesn’t end prejudice, it perpetuates it.
ok,
sorry for calling you guys racist
i really don’t think you are in a zig heil type of way
I know you guys don’t rape people and own slaves
but i do think you enjoy the fruits of such activities and are in denial about it.
I don’t think ending prejudice is a feasable goal.
We are biologically predisposed to prejudice and the best we can do is to get to know our inner bigot and deal with it if we want peace between the races.
Joel:
If the navajo nation goes to england, sets up hogans and sheep camps, kicks the royals out of buckingham palace, lies to them for a couple of hundred years and kills them off systematically via disease and displacement
then sure, it will be ok to name sports teams things like “redskins”
until then if a group of native american athletes want to adopt ward cleaver as their mascot and call themselves “the fighting whites” that is fair and just.
max,
I never defined “whitey”
nor did i ever say “superior” which you also put in quotes
superior isn’t the goal
the overall goal is racial harmony
the path toward it is blocked by denial
and do you really think it is your place to tell minorities what to do and how to feel about it?
while it doesnt make you a racist, it certainly makes you paternalistic
I think I understand your philosophy now. Right and wrong isn’t absolute, it’s determined by members of the majority. If people who are in the majority do something, then that makes it ok for everybody to do it, right?
Oh, and I like how you go on and on about the injustices of white people towards people of color. As though, the reverse isn’t true. Ever hear of a guy named Robert Mugabe and what he’s done to white farmers in Zimbabwe? What about them, can they use the race card?
ok, so the next time the NFL expands, they can name the mascot “the mugabes”
the very fact that you feel it necessary to point out what some black person did that was racist says something about your emotional state
are you sure you’re not trying to redirect some guilt feeling?
point the finger somewhere else to assuage your discomfort?
I know that people of color are not infallible, in fact, I believe that people who have been opressed are likely to be less equipped to behave in a non racist way (their pain being more imminent, and thus what they act out of more frequently)
I don’t believe that you are really interested in my philosophy
if you just wanted to insult me, you could have just said mean things about my mother
right and wrong are not absolute,
but they are expressed by our laws, which have historically been opressive to minorities (no, not all the laws, no, not all the minorities, no, not all the time, and yes some laws have been unfair to some white people as well) and the creation of which has been underrepresented by the minorities they govern.
well, i’m just saying that turnabout is fair play, what’s good for the goose is good for the whitey (sorry, just can’t resist the term, feel free to call me a spic if you get mad)
two wrongs may not make a right, but a negative times a negative equals a positive.
actually, i don’t really even believe these things fully, but the reason we have debates is to try out beliefs, kind of like a shirt at the store, see if it fits.
Whatever happened to “Two wrongs don’t make a right”?
But it wasn’t “good” for the goose, meaning there is no justification for how blacks were treated and few are attempting to do so. So how is it fair that whites who are not racist be subjected to racism, including being stereotyped as “racist”?
Others have tried to make this point for you, greck. but your still not getting it: People are individuals and should not be lumped together and judged as monolithic groups according to skin color. That’s racist.
You ‘just can’t resist the term’? I suppose Klansman also can’t resist ‘nigger’ and ‘wetback’, but that hardly justifies them using childish slurs in a debate forum.
Learn to resist the term.
Then what do your OP and followups say about your emotional state? Sorry, hypocrisy alert drive-by.
"the very fact that you feel it necessary to point out what some black person did that was racist says something about your emotional state
are you sure you’re not trying to redirect some guilt feeling?
point the finger somewhere else to assuage your discomfort?"
Uhm, there you go with the guilt thing again. What do I have to feel guilty for?
The reason I pointed out what Mugabe did is because I was getting the impression, although I see now that it was probably false, that you were saying that all racism is perpetrated by whites, and I was just pointing out an example of racism against whites.
Anyway, you didn’t answer my question. You asked if it’s ok for white people to use the race card. What about the white farmers in Zimbabwe? Is it ok for them to use the race card?
ok,
alot to which i must respond.
squeels people are not individuals, but you can start a new thread on that one, maybe i will, it’s a fun discussion.
it’s not even really turnabout, because calling people wetback and nigger and that stuff really cant be compared to calling someone whitey
because when derrogatory terms toward minorities have been used, they have been used with a power differential. So, there’s no way that the term “whitey” packs the same punch as the term “nigger.”
as far as the name of the thread, i misused the term “race card” which tom pointed out, and gave us all the history (thanks again tom)
beagle
you really want to know about my emotional state?
im a therapist, as in: “tell me about your feelings” my emotional state is under constant and vigilant surveilance. So i don’t really think it’s hypocrisy
joel
of course the farmers can cry foul (depending on the laws in zimbabwe) there was one,
I suppose it doesn’t go without saying that the debate radiates from the US. lesson learned. I’ll specify in the future
you really don’t know what you have to feel guilty about?
probably nothing, that’s one of the things about “white guilt”
and why it’s so hard to identify
it’s not really because of anything you did or do, more because of what you enjoy passively, based on what others did.
it’s easier to think of it in terms of being male first, and using male privilege as a means of understanding
you can walk alone at night, little fear of being raped.
that sort of thing
if you are being followed by store security you can rest assured it’s not because of your skin color.
property value doesn’t drop when you move into the neighborhood, or if it does, you can rule out race as a factor.
in fact, you can rule out race as playing a role in almost anything from bank loans to being stopped by the police.
the history of your people isn’t relegated to a special month in school.
you’ve probably never actively discriminated against minorities, but i’d bet all $25 in my shoe you’ve enjoyed some of the fruits
of discrimination.
all that’s asked is that it’s acknowledged and kept on the surface.
Greck, you know, there is a difference between calling attention to a specific example of racism and labeling all member sof an arbitrarily defined group as such (particularly since YOU define the group).
I, for one, refuse to call you a “spic” because I’m angry (partly because I still am not sure what it means, but hey).
“people are not individuals.”
Now that certainly smacks of racism.
Insults are made by individuals, not groups. If a black man twice my size calls me “whitey”, you bet there’s a power differential - in his favor.
Greck, if store security doesn’t follow me, does that make ME a bad person? If the bank gives me a loan that it would otherwise deny someone else based on race or color, or police officer doesn’t stop me, again, does that make ME a bad person?
Why should I feel guilty about that?
joel
get off the cross, quit asking me for absolution,
not calling you a bad person, just asking you to open your eyes
but you seem not interested in looking at yourself, so, you can respond, get the last word in, and i’ll stop bugging you.
Mr2001
yes, and if you called a black person much smaller than you “nigger” …
my assertion was that you calling him nigger means more than mike tyson calling you cracker
mike could whoop you (im assuming)
you could whoop on a person smaller than you (also assuming)
but there is much more than a physical threat that goes with you using the n word, and that is history
I’m thinking there is no word in our language that packs quite a wallop as “nigger”
about the individuals thing, i’ll start a thread on that one.
joel
get off the cross, quit asking me for absolution,
not calling you a bad person, just asking you to open your eyes
but you seem not interested in looking at yourself, so, you can respond, get the last word in, and i’ll stop bugging you.
Mr2001
yes, and if you called a black person much smaller than you “nigger” …
my assertion was that you calling him nigger means more than mike tyson calling you cracker
mike could whoop you (im assuming)
you could whoop on a person smaller than you (also assuming)
but there is much more than a physical threat that goes with you using the n word, and that is history
I’m thinking there is no word in our language that packs quite a wallop as “nigger”
about the individuals thing, i’ll start a thread on that one.
Then the power balance is in my favor - because of my size, not my race. Being white doesn’t make me any more “powerful” than him, this is the year 2002.
Basing the acceptability of an insult on the historical repression of racial groups is nonsense. Many Japanese-Americans were sent to internment camps during WWII, but Mexican-Americans have never been sent to camps; does that mean it’s OK for Japanese to fling racial insults at Mexicans?
whoa are you confusing the issue
the position is:
that being white does make you more powerful than him, all other things being equal
being white means that more doors are open to you, that you… ah, i don’t have the energy to write all this stuff over look back a few posts, i ran through it all for joel along with beagle, and someone else
better yet, read “white privilege, the invisible napsack” by peggy mcintosh