is it ok for white people to use "the race card?"

I don’t buy it. When someone gets in my face and slings racial slurs at me, I’m not thinking about which of us has an easier time getting a loan. I’m not thinking about which of us is going to be followed in stores, or pulled over for no reason. Most of all, I’m not thinking about what someone who looks like me might have done to someone who looks like him 150 years ago.

I’m thinking who is this guy, what does he want from me, and what is he going to do to me? If I think he’s gonna beat me to a pulp, I’ll feel threatened; I don’t need to consider how other people might treat him at other times to know that in this situation, he’s the one with the power.

Greck, quote:
“joel get off the cross, quit asking me for absolution, not calling you a bad person, just asking you to open your eyes but you seem not interested in looking at yourself, so, you can respond, get the last word in, and i’ll stop bugging you.”

I don’t understand a word your saying, and I’m not asking you for absolution. I know that whites have it easier than minorities. My eyes are open. What I’m confused about is where the guilt comes in. And how am I supposed to look at myself?

2001

you aren’t thinking about the bank loan, store security, or the po-lice even when someone isn’t in your face. you don’t have to. that’s the essence of white privilege.
As far as what someone who looks like you did 150 years ago, you DEFINITELY aren’t thinking about that (not just you, but i’m trying to keep the writing uniform) in fact, you are actively NOT thinking about it. You (i, we) avoid thinking about it because it makes you uncomfortable.
joel, i said i wasn’t going to bug you anymore, but you asked me a question, i feel i have to respond, please forgive me.

the guilt comes from knowing what occurred, knowing that you can do nothing about it, knowing that you (we) reap the benefits of the exploitation of a people who have still not recovered from it.

“i didn’t say it was your fault, i said i was going to blame you”
-author unknown

2001

you aren’t thinking about the bank loan, store security, or the po-lice even when someone isn’t in your face. you don’t have to. that’s the essence of white privilege.
As far as what someone who looks like you did 150 years ago, you DEFINITELY aren’t thinking about that (not just you, but i’m trying to keep the writing uniform) in fact, you are actively NOT thinking about it. You (i, we) avoid thinking about it because it makes you uncomfortable.
joel, i said i wasn’t going to bug you anymore, but you asked me a question, i feel i have to respond, please forgive me.

the guilt comes from knowing what occurred, knowing that you can do nothing about it, knowing that you (we) reap the benefits of the exploitation of a people who have still not recovered from it.

“i didn’t say it was your fault, i said i was going to blame you”
-author unknown

Greck, you continue to blame “whitey” for things that some people do. Why should i be guilt-tripped into accepting blame for things other people do?

I have no knowledge of your ethnicity, but assume you are an African, (and I mean living in Africa). Do I, coming from a society that has publicly rejected racism and slavery, get free use of the term “barbaric slaver” for all Africans because some people in some parts of Africa do so? No, because that would be sterotyping and wrong.

The only difference I see in this example and you ideas is that I cast in Ethnic or geographical terms, both of which are arbitrary, not even following national boundaries.

Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand. This seems to be along the lines of thanksgiving, when some news reporters want those of us who are in our homes, eating our thanksgiving dinners, to feel guilty because there people who are either on the streets, or in shelters.
Ok, to clear things up, I don’t feel guilty for anything beyond my control. To do so, would be a false since of guilt.
Now, one point I’d like to make, and a couple of questions.

First, you’re right in that nothing can be done about what happened in the past, but plenty can be done about what’s happening now.

Second, what’s achieved by people of color, and other minorities lashing out at all whites? Besides those of us who haven’t done anything racist, there are those who have actually worked for the cause of civil rights. My mother for example, worked for a fair housing agency where first, a Mexican, or Asian, or black person or couple would go into an apartment complex to apply for a vacancy, and if denied, my mother, either by herself, or with someone else, would go in and try for the same vacancy, to see if she/they would also get rejected. Does my mother deserve to be called “whitey”?

And third, back to your opening post, what about Jews? To those with white supremacist thinking, like those in the Klan, Skinheads, and so on, Jews are just as hated as those with dark skin. In fact, also, some of the more noticeable black figures, like Luis Farrakhan, seem to have anti-Semitic tendencies. So it seems like Jews get it from both blacks and whites. Am I wrong?

joel,
good points, all of them

what is to be achieved by people of color…lashing out against all whites?

in my real opinion, likely nothing, but maybe awareness.

and there’s no way im getting into saying bad things about your mother

and yeah, it does seem like Jewish people get it from all sides.

I knew the right answer to the question i posed in the OP, i just wanted to see if people could offer different perspectives, so i took a position and went with it.

bandit-
AFRICA?
no, try new mexico, hispanic
i know jack about africa

and you should feel guilty because, well, joel explained about the turkeys and stuff, read back a few posts

I explained about the turkeys and stuff? Are you sure you aren’t thinking of another poster in this thread?

Thank you.

Except for extremists, like skinheads, who in America doesn’t realize that racism still exists?

Thanks, but I guess I wasn’t clear in making my point. In your previous posts, you talk about how whites benefit from racism, and mentioned various racist groups. Because of that, you make the argument that minorities have a right to be disrespectful to ALL whites, because of the bad ones. My point was, what about the whites who work towards racial fairness and harmony? Do they deserve disrespect from the minorities they’re trying to help?

I’ve always wondered about that. Well, I mean white racists hating Jews even though they’re white too. But that’s a whole other topic.

I’m curious, what is your answer to the question? Or do you want to let this debate go on a little bit longer before revealing it?

Ok, I’ll dive in…I don’t come this way much anymore so why not.

As to the “advantages of discrimination” or what not…I think that ends up being one of those mercurial sorts of constructs that can never really be proven or disproven. Have I (though myself not a racist) benefitted from the racism of my white ancestors…gee I don’t feel that I got a lot of heads up from it, but I suppose one could argue that I have. But I would like for you to go into a group of poor or homeless white people (of which there is no short supply…I work in a jail, let me tell you)…and tell them they must sure be enjoying all the advantages of their whiteness. I’d be curious as to their reaction.

As to sociology (biased argument coming)…as a psyche instructor I can’t stand sociology. Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of wonderful sociologists and sociology teachers out there. But there also are many that present a fairly distorted and emotionally-laden view of the world to young minds. Even getting away from the politically correct diatribes, many continue to insist that biology is irrelevant (or miniscule at best) to human behavior.

Ok off my tangent.

I’ll be the judge of what I think about, thank you. I’ve been pulled over more than anyone I know; at this point, I feel physically ill when I see a police car on the road. And it has nothing to do with race.

I don’t think that way, and I’ve never met anyone who does (well, besides the white supremacist I met at a party once).

As a rule, thinking about events that happened centuries ago doesn’t make me uncomfortable. Whites enslaved blacks, Northerners killed Southerners, settlers massacred Indians, British and American soldiers killed each other, Romans conquered Europe, dinosaurs were killed by a comet, and that was all too bad, but I wasn’t part of it and I couldn’t have stopped it. I have nothing to feel guilty about.

Please point out a single benefit that I enjoy but people of other races don’t, that resulted from historical mistreatment of other races. Examples of modern prejudice don’t count; there’s modern prejudice against whites, such as the McDonald’s mentioned in a recent Pit thread where the manager refused to serve white customers.

Then explain why such benefits, assuming they exist, are justification for racial insults. A wealthy black man enjoys many opportunities that are closed to a poor white guy like me, does that mean it’s OK for me to make racial slurs about him?

Hell, why are insults of any type OK just because someone else is better off than you? Do you make fun of people driving Vipers, talking on PalmPilot cell phones, or living in expensive houses? How would you react if someone in a wheelchair insulted you, then justified it by saying you should be guilty about having functional legs?

I, too, am confused about the concept of “white guilt”. Guilt is an emotion for people who have done something wrong. If one has done nothing wrong, one has no reason to feel guilty.

Even if I have benefitted from previous generations of racism, should I care? It’s not as though I can do anything to reverse past events. The next time I get approved for a mortgage, should I politely decline on account of not wanting to benefit from past racism? Or should I bash in one of the tail lights on my car just to get pulled over an extra time? Nonsense!

Past events and present circumstances are almost entirely beyond my control. The only minute influence I have on race relations is that I don’t actively perpetuate racism, and that’s pretty much all I can do. Should I feel guilty about what I can’t do? I can’t revive the dead, but I’m not all torn up inside about that, either.

2001

you said it best
when you get pulled over, you can be absolutely sure it has nothing to do with race
people of color can’t be so sure. That’s partially what white privilege is, the ability to refrain from factoring race into such situations.

not counting it as an asset, that’s just living in denial

re: the guy in the wheelchair,
hell yes i feel guilty for him being in a wheelchair. I didn’t put him there, but he’s there and that makes me uncomfortable, I guess guilt isn’t really the word, but it’s the best one i can think of.

Moreover, my first impulse is to avoid contact with him if possible.
do i want to feel this way? no dammit, no!
I really want to think of myself as seeing him as equal, worthy, and I do see him that way.
I look the guy in the face, try not to stare cause i don’t want to seem like i’m staring, but try not to look away too quickly, then look away, get back to my business and try to put the discomfort behind me as soon as possible.

if he insults me calling me a filthy biped or something?
egh, tough one, too much depends on context, but guilt, i assure you would play a role.

although if he came on stage and did a comedy routine about us filthy bipeds, that’s a whole other matter…
we do seem to tolerate, in popular culture, much more poking fun at the white ethnicities than the minorities.
-strictly casual observation here-
white comedians tend to be self-depricating when using racial material
black commedians seem to have more free reign when making fun of white people than vice versa

So, by analysis, you think that us white folks look at people of color, or other such minorities with pity? You’re saying that when we see a black person, or Hispanic, or Asian, or, whatever, we have an impulse to look away, and that we have to make ourselves see them as equals? That we’re all uncomfortable?

Heh, this reminds me of something me and a friend have started doing. He started greeting me with ‘Whassup, my cracka?’ a few months ago (he’s white too), and over time using ‘cracka’ the same way that many blacks use the term ‘nigga’ has become a habit, and it’s spread to a few of my friends too. I haven’t thought anything about it, but when I ran into him at a store and greeted him using the ‘c’ word a black lady standing nearby turned and gave me what seemed to be a disapproving stare.

I’m not trying to be offensive to anyone, and I never found the term ‘cracker’ as offensive personally (the word originally referred to poor white mule drivers, not slave owners), but I guess some people might be uneasy hearing the word thrown around like that, or may think we are mocking the use of ‘nigga’ among blacks (which I guess we were originally). I do know the word has a strong negative meaning to blacks, one time at my old job we were discussing slang terms for various races, and my friend Walt said there weren’t any really good ones for white people, and when somebody else pointed out the word cracker he acted like he was embarassed to hear the word and said he could never say it to a white person’s face.

Two things.
First, in my last post, I said analysis, when I meant analogy.
Second, I’ve always found the term “Cracker” hilarious. I don’t know why, but it just cracks me up when I hear it. Anyway, isn’t honky (or is it spelled honkey ?) the worse term for white people?

Actually, the word cracker was a seventeenth (and perhaps sixteenth) century slang term for a braggart that came to be applied to ruffians and low-lifes in general because of their tendency to be boastful without cause. I have not seen the explicit transfer to (originally) poor Georgians laid out, but the fact that Georgia was established as a penal colony might have helped in that association.
By now, of course, the folk-etymology about mule drivers is so thoroughly entrenched that we may never get it out of the public consciousness.

Hmm, why the word cracker for braggarts? Did it mean something along that lines at one time? I always assumed it came from ‘whip cracker’.

i never said “pity”

just need to make sure that’s out there
i said discomfort.
and yes, i think people try to look away.

and doesn’t your finding the best derrogatory word we can come up with amusing; doesn’t that point toward some type of privilege?

the very fact that people are resentful enough of african americans coopting the word nigger and making it a means of expressing kinship to make fun of the “my nigga” phenomenon, that suggests the desire to trump any attempt at power over opression made by african americans.

again i quote homer simpson:
“and stop saying queer, that’s OUR word for making fun of YOU”

not saying i don’t appreciate calling each other cracker, or any other means of making fun of each other, i think it keeps us close to our friends, keeps us feeling connected.

I don’t consider my personal feelings a privilege, it’s just how I am. I doubt I would be that much different had I been born black (though I’d probably have a better education).