cadolphin, please chill. This forum is called IMHO, that stands for In My Humble Opinion. The OP asked about love, a very psychological question. I gave my opinion. That is how the game is played. I was not talking about you in any degree of specificity, I didn’t even look to see who said what before I posted, for I care not. For those who may be less aware of the intricacies of the written word, I thoughtfully included the words “In my opinion…” as the introduction to my post, right up front so nobody missed it, lest one thinks I am being authoritative and shit. Please feel free to continue to disagree with my opinion, I honestly feel I have it within myself to come to grips with that form of rejection.
Part of the “value” issue has to do with the fact that, ideally, a child will live beyond your lifetime. They have a separate future outside of yours.
I have no children, and most likely, never will. I have always had pets, and I love them dearly.
Think of it this way, if a pet was suffering and was terminally ill, the right thing to do would be euthanasia. (I had to put my kitty of 16 years to sleep, she had surgery for breast cancer and 9 months later it was back, and she was suffering terribbly), and I stayed there with her and held her to the end)
A terminally ill child on the other hand… Who could put a child to sleep, even if it was legal?
Yes, you can love a pet “like” it was a child, but you can’t value them in the same way.
I don’t love my cats like I do my kids. I’m sure it’s possible for some people but it just isn’t in the same ball park for me. Reverse the thread title and it makes the distinction even more clear: “Is it possible to love a child as you might love a pet?” The two entities don’t fall into the same category.
myrnajean brings up a point where the distinction is clear: euthanasia. Though a few people might consider ending the suffering of a terminally ill child, most will not consider it an option. Another for me is if a pet dies under whatever circumstances, I’ll eventually replace it with another pet. I don’t consider it replacing the lost pet, simply starting another relationship after one has ended. Not so with a child. A lost child would be too devestating to me to conciously consider having another one to “replace” him.
It’s simply not the same. I’ll admit that I know some childless people where it seems that they love their pets like children and I don’t think that’s weird. It’s just not me.
I don’t think I’ll ever have a child, and this is mostly because
- The idea of being pregnant makes me feel physically ill
and - I don’t think I’d be able to love something that had made me go through something that revolts me so much.
Healthy mentally or not, I love my cat more than I love any human I’ve ever known, family included, and devestated will not even begin to cover what I will feel when I have to euthanase her.
Horseflesh, I’m not sure your euthanasia comparison is valid due to the social taboo of killing humans. If there was no taboo around euthanasia of humans (eg because there were no religious objections towards it) then maybe many more people would be able to pick a humane option for their family members.
I could never give my cat away, but if by some horrible mischance I should fall pregnant, I don’t think I’d have any problems aborting or adopting out the baby.
No background, eh?
Are we talking about you, or Michael Jackson? He has pets and children. I think he had the pets first.
I am childless–NOT by choice. I love my dog a great amount; I was a stay-at-home wife for the first year we had her (I was undergoing intensive fertility treatments at the time). The day I got the news that the two embryos had died and I was not pregnant, I wanted to die. Literally. My puppy would not leave my side until my husband got home.
When I started back to work again to pay for the expensive IVF procedure, I cried all the way to work every day the first week, knowing that my dog would be alone all day for the first time.
I had to have a hysterectomy last year; due to our age, it’s doubtful that we will be able to adopt. So my dog is my baby and I love her deeply. I sing a good morning song to her every morning; we snuggle a lot; and she loves me unconditionally.
I know that I don’t love her as much as I would love a child, but I do love her deeply.
The euthanasia point cuts no ice with me because personally, I’d WANT to be euthanized and I think the taboo against ending a life that is utterly miserable, painful, and machine-dependent is absurd. The way I euthanized my beloved Thomas is the way I’d want to be treated upon my death. No quantitative difference there. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that if I had a child who was suffering from a degenerative, painful, horrifying illness such as Thomas’, I’d want to treat that child with the same dignity as Thomas was given.
Does that further complicate the argument or what?
Well, I am not a parent but I do come from a family that owns and deeply adores our cats and my parents did also lose their first child to a prolonged illness while she was very young.
Death of The Best Cat in the World: lots of crying, lots of sadness but parents were able to move on and adopted a new shelter cat as a testament to his memory and the lovability of striped orange and white cats.
Death of My Older Sister from Yet Unknown Causes: two year insomnia session for mother, mental breakdowns for both parents, 4 year psychologically resulting infertility problems, 1 nerve disease that struck during bad health resulting from having mentally institutionalised wife which paralyzed my father for 6 months down right half of body, almost near death of marriage, lifelong fear of children dying off without explanation.
The combination of resulting tragedies compelled parents to get asses in gear, decided to accept fate and adopt and enjoy life as much as possible which somehow resulted in miraculous conception of moi-end result being I am the most pampered and spoiled child to walk the face of the earth.
So I don’t know. I think it’s possible to have deep love for pets and children and I don’t mean to trivialize how much people can love their pets but just from knowing what my parents went through and how it affects my life today, I can say that the death of a child in my family was nothing compared to when our cat died.
Erm, reverse cat and child in that last sentence. I really must get some sleep after this last exam.
Maybe as much or even more BUT it is not the same kind of ‘love.’
Your love for brothers and sisters, the love for father and mother, and the love for your children is a different kind of love that that for a non-human pet.
“Beware of the Cog”
Christ Rudystreak you’re practically my twin!
I consider parents who force their children (or SO) to cling to a painful prolonged end to be cruel. If there really is nothing left to do, then let them go with the least amount of pain. I held on dearly for my cat of 18.5 years (and 1 day) but in the end I had to opt for the most dignified end I could give him.
I’d hope more parents would be like that to their own children whom they claim to love more than any animal. Yet the news is filled with parents holding on far beyond any hope of recovery or point.
I love my father and he’s asked of me to make his death as quick and painless as possible if it ever comes down to that. And as a loving son I will respect his wish. My family and SO also know this is my choice as well.
Taxi! Taxi! Take me to Great Debates, and step on it!
badmana, maybe we are living parallel lives, because my father, upon the death of his cat by euthanasia, told me to make SURE he went out like that, fast, painless, before quality of life was lost. The man was comparing his own future death to the cat’s, hoping to emulate the cat.
In a lot of ways, my cats allow me to be my best self. I can control all aspects of their lives (nearly-- can’t stop one of them from pissing on all things plastic, the little booger), protect them, give them all the love I carry around, pamper them, and never be let down, disappointed, or screwed over by them. When they get too sick to enjoy life, no one will call me a murderer for ending their suffering. It is an idealized relationship and as such really bears no comparison to the complicated, down and dirty ambivalence, with higher highs and lower lows, of human to human relationships. It’s not really a fair contest in either direction.
I was just thinking that this would be better in Great Debates, and there goes stuyguy taking the words out of my mouth!
Right on!! The same goes for people who use the phrase “it’s just an animal” in reference to my dog (deceased one year this past August). I grew up with her, and she was like a sister to me. If you don’t understand that kind of relationship, fine. But there’s absolutely no reason for any person to tell me that I’m mentally unstable for loving a pet that much.
Thank you to all that have responded.
To give more context to the OP, I have a truck load of friends at the moment who have just had babies – more accurately, a truck load of babies who have just been born to friends - two sets of twins and three friends with one baby each – all within six months.
I doubt that I will ever have children, but I do have a wonderful two-year old mini-schnauzer that I more than adore. Because of the recent raining of babies w/my friends, we obviously talk quite a bit about their children. On many occasions, I want to “chime in” with something similar to what they are saying – the problem is that it concerns my dog, and I don’t want to insult them by equating my dog with their infant. So I don’t chime in.
It just got me thinking about the fact that my unbelievable love for my pet (I don’t have to spell it out to ya’ll - you know what I mean) sometimes seems like this unspeakable love.
I know that if I ever did have children the perspective would change. But I don’t think that will happen (that I will have children). So, I guess it sort of boils down to, I love this pet with all my heart, and…and…that’s really it.
Sat on Cookie: Ah, now it all makes sense! It’s tough when everyone else has kids and that’s all they can talk about. I understand, but I expect your friends would not understand the pet to baby comparison. Sigh.
Jeep’s Phoenix: I totally agree with you on this. People who don’t have pets or don’t bond with their pets as we do pften say belittling things about the grief we feel when our pets die, and that adds insult to injury. When my amazing cat Streaker (his name is part of my moniker) died, the guy I was dating at the time, when faced with my tidal wave of grief, said, “Well, now maybe you’ll learn not to get so attached to a cat!”
That (among other offenses) was the end of him.:wally and good riddance.
The baby-pet comparison hits close to home. My sister recently (3 weeks ago) had a baby girl. Due to the fact that the father is pretty worthless she’s living at home while she gets used to caring for the kid. I’m not as attached to this child as I should be (maybe I’m just jaded) but I can’t help thinking that much of what my sister is going through is what I went through with my own cat (in terms of care) when he was young (and when he was on his last month of life).
I have no plans on having children but if I do, I would like to think I would give them the same devotion that I gave my cat up to, and including, being able to let go if something happens.
I guess you’d have to watch the interactions of loving pet owners to understand what kind of treatment a highly loved pet can receive (which mirrors quite closely to what a human baby can receive from loving parents).
I have to chime in here again, because I don’t think anyone touched on one main point in my post.
Children are EXPECTED to live beyond you, they become something other than just your children. Whereas your pets are always babies.
The love and expectation for a child is different I think.
Those of us who have pets and no children, kind of know, deep down inside, that eventually, our pets will die before us. I have had all my pets from weaning till death, and yes, I loved them very, very much.
I just think that if I had a child, that love would carry a different tone, simply BECAUSE I expected more of them. They would become people, adults, someone I could talk to and be “friends” with.
Not that you can’t be “friends” with your pet. It’s just that your pet, is always your baby, something fully dependant on you. Children grow up. Pets never do. Maybe that’s why some of us love them so much.
If dogs “grew up” they would be wolves, and they wouldn’t make very good pets.
Cats on the other hand, well, they do kinda become independent “adults” but they are still just big babies.
As much as I love my Dacshunds, they are not my children. They are my dogs, and I love with all my heart, but I could never love them as much as I could love my child.
What does the phrase “love as much” mean? To me that implies that love is a linear, quantifiable substance that can be measured by a ruler. I simply do not see it that way. Sure, there are different degrees of love, but when you get to that point where you LOVE somebody, like a kid, parent, spouse, or pet, it’s not the quantity of love that differs, it’s the shape (for lack of a better word). I love my cats in ways that I can never love a human being, and love my father in a way that I will never love another human being. Ditto for my brother (I only have the one sibling). Get what I’m saying?
I reiterate my position on the inherent absurdity of trying to quantify and compare love.