oops, that SHOULD say Deut. 13:6-9
EchoKitty:
Too personal to be shared in marriage? Not in my opinion.
First of all, that’s not true. Jewish teaching, at the very least, is that the more people are praying together, the more effective the prayer is.
Secondly, you seem to be equating “religion” with “mode of worship.” While worship is part of most religions, it is hardly the only part - and hardly the only religious aspect that one would feel a need to have in common with one’s spouse.
Because acting as “partners” in such a manner would necessarily mean one of two things:
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The partners are humoring one another to make each other happy in this life, but, since each is furthering (in their partner) life goals that he/she feels are wrong or unimportant, each is knowingly (albeit not consciously) causing harm to his/her partner in the long run. Is this truly a loving marriage? Not in my book.
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The partners are genuinely uncertain about which of them is correct, so their tolerance and support are not for differing beliefs, but for differing opinions. That is quite a different thing.
Chaim Mattis Keller
How are they harming their partner in the long run? Are far as I understand, they are furthering their own life goals. With religion, such goals are indeed personal. A hypothetical Christian partner seeks her goal (be more like Jesus in life) and a hypothetical Buddhist partner seeks his goal (destroy the self through meditation to achieve enlightenment, or something like that.) Neither of these goals need cause any harm to anybody through their attainment, especially a loved one.
Not all goals that differ come into conflict.
That’s the great question. And I’m not sure why some people in this thread would set apart religion, by making it more/less acceptable than another difference.
I’m going to take some totally different example. I’ve an issue with greed. I’ve a hard time befriending someone very interested in money and I plainly can’t bear greedy people. There’s no way I could marry one, this character flaw irritates me too much. Or something else : I’m a die hard leftist. I’d have a hard time living with a right-winger. And I could find plenty of other things which would prevent me from marrying someone (actually most probably I wouldn’t be interested in the person at the first place, so I wouldn’t even have to wonder whether or not I should marry her).
I don’t see any difference with religion. It’s one of the many things which can very important for someone, and not the last of them. If someone’s religion is pivotal in his/her life, why on earth shouldn’t it be a valid basis to choose a partner for life (supposedly)? In what way is it more narrow-minded than choosing him/her on the basis of his/her age and physical appearance, for instance? Or on the basis that he/she’s ambitious or fun, or whatever else? Comparisons have been made with klansmen. Well…aren’t there some (white) people who wouldn’t marry a klansman because they couldn’t bear his political opinions? Aren’t there people who wouldn’t marry someone who is too settled in his/her little comfortable suburbian life or at the contrary who lives a too unconventionnal life?
So, why would religion be singled out in one way or the other?
This male agnostic would probably have difficulties with a partner who has a fundamentalist outlook.
My Mom was of the opinion that the kids should follow the religion of the Mother, “Since she is responsible for getting the kids to church.” Sounds acceptable to me.
-flowbark, who grew up as a mainline Protestant, and whose brother is a Catholic, out of deference for his wife.
Not to be an gremlin with big nasty teeth but what instructions in the bible do you follow? You see, there are a whole lot of instructions in the bible and they do not exactly align with one another.
For one thing, you aren’t following Jesus’ instruction to sell your possessions, give the money to the poor, renounce your family to follow him.
So you are picking and choosing, yes? On what basis?
cmkeller is Jewish so Jesus’ instructions would be irrelevant 
Tv Time, that was brilliant!
Now, eventually, you will have to explain to the child that Swede’s aren’t really that bad…
You aren’t alone, but they probably aren’t the same comments.
Well, thanks just a ton for your insights into my character based on a four-line post, and your own projections.
So deciding that you want to marry someone who shares your core values is empty bigotry, whereas condemnation of the motivations of strangers whose commitments are different from yours is insightful.
Uh huh. :rolleyes:
Regards,
Shodan
RexDart:
I disagree. The goals are not personal, they’re universal. The Christian partner did not come up by herself with the notion that her goal in life should be to emulate Jeses, she believes that G-d said that everyone’s goal should be to emulate him. By not furthering that goal in her partner, she is accommodating his beliefs to please him in the here and now, but believes that this will not progress him toward what she believes is the ultimate good.
If religious goals were self-determined, as, for example, career goals are, I’d agree with you. However, that’s not true. The sincere religious believer (although perhaps I shouldn’t generalize) forms his or her life goal based on what he/she believes is the life purpose of every person.
Urban Ranger:
When studied properly (i.e., with the traditional interpretations recorded in the Talmud), they do align. There is no picking and choosing.
Chaim Mattis Keller
I do think that religious goals are self-determined. You look at the various tenets of your faith and you decide if it is something you believe will benefit your life here on Earth.
chuckle Of course not. I merely used that as the most minor example of a doctrinal difference that I know of - to show how such differences might cause problems.
As for friends who do not share the same faith, I may not be the best choice to answer that - most of my adult friends I met when I was involved with my college’s Lutheran student group. But friends are on a completely different level of intimacy than a spouse. (Right?) There’s really no basis for comparison.
Diogenes, I’m trying to decide whether you deserve a civil answer or not. You appear to be making assumptions about my character based on a total of two posts I made. So my first response is to advise you to check your own knee-jerk bigotry.
I’m not sure you’re spiritually equipped to participate in a discussion about faith, but I will try to cast my grain on the hard ground anyway. Firstly, re: “Truth”. John 8:32 And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
I have been baptized as child of God and have received the gift of faith through His grace. And what does this faith grant to me? Heb 11:1 NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]. Faith gives me certain knowledge of the Truth. (Not the whole TRUTH for there is much that is unknowable, and that which is knowable takes time to learn. I am still learning and will continue until the moment of my death.)
I regret that you have perceived me as being smug and arrogant - I tried very hard in composing my posts to not be that way, indeed, I’m not sure where that comes across.
The flying planes into buildings comment I could very well take as insulting in the extreme, but instead I shall chalk it up to a comment made in ignorance. Only someone who is completely benighted about the concept of faith would proffer the opinion that all who have certainty about their spiritual center will draw upon it to do evil.
For along with everything else it is, faith is a tool. The same level of convicion that drove Mohammed Atta (sic) drove Mother Theresa. It never matters what the level of someone’s faith is. What matters is what they have faith in.
My children, having been baptized, will grow up being taught the Truth by me, my wife, and our Church. I’m sure they will have struggles with it, as I had and continue to have. But I will teach them that I will always be there to help them. THAT is what I won’t stop - I won’t stop teaching and trying to lead them to an ever-greater understanding of the Truth. Children are to be taught, not controlled.
Finally, regarding your tossing out of a small portion of Scripture, allow me to clarify first - the verses you cited are instructions on how do deal with someone who tries to turn YOU from God, not who turns away themselves. Secondly, as a Christian, my instructions are to love others as I love myself, and in this matter, the new covenant supercedes the old. If my wife or my children start to turn away from the Truth, it is my solemn responsibility to do all in my power to lovingly bring them back.
Tygr, don’t you think your wife and children (once they reach a certain age) are capable of making the decision to leave their faith?
agnostic, massively philosophical, former philosophy major, massively skeptic skeptic/Mormon marriage here with 5 kids.
We got married a year ago and it continues to amaze us both at times.
I am a very deep thinker. My beliefs are extremely contrarian to religious dogma and metaphysics. I do not believe in God, Christ, or the Bible. If anything I am agnostic.
The Mormon religion is one of the most dogmatic evangelical Christian religions. They strongly discourage marrying non-members, and they aggressively try to convert any non members they meet, especially parents in mixed marriages like mine.
My marriage is very strong and wonderful. The key is for both people to realize what is most important in a person, and that is their values. I value honesty, love, communication, patience, tolerance, creativity, learning, and celebration of life. So does she. Who cares is I believe robots will one day take over the world and she believes Christ was the son of God?
My wife did have to grapple with some issues: According to Mormon dogma, I am not going to the same place when I die as she and the children are going…nor will we be allowed to be together for eternity…
On the other hand, she knows Mormon married couples, married in a temple, who are promised the best real estate in Heaven and eternal marriage…even though the husband doesn’t love their wife as honestly and wonderfully as I love mine. (You know, wanks to pornography, yells at her occasionally, is generally unaffectionate…ordinary mediocre stagnant marriage, but he goes to church every Sunday!)
My wife decided God would have more sense then that.
So the key to relationships: Communication, compassion, and emphasis on the important things: The values you live by, not your metaphysical beliefs. It doesn’t matter if you proclaim you believe in some truth, if you behave like a jerk. But if you behave like a wonderful honest person, who cares if you believe in different stuff?
Oh yea and the kids. They go to church with Mom, I rarely go. They are taught Mormon stuff, some of it Mom vetoes at home, if they ask me what I believe I tell them. So they are exposed to people with different beliefs who love and cherish each other. I think that is healthy. They will be exposed to people with different beliefs every day of their lives, they need to learn how to deal with that.
Still, if the goals don’t directly come into conflict, where’s the problem? Perhaps she believes that he ought to be following the universal in which she believes, that he ought to be striving to be more like Jesus. There are plenty of things wives think their husbands ought to be doing, they’re surely used to not getting their way all the time by now. So long as his goals aren’t in direct conflict with her goals, she should mind her own business, as should he. Or is it yet another case of “I know what’s best for you”…is anybody so arrogant to claim that sort of thing to somebody they love?
I tend to agree with RexDart when he speaks of the arrogance in assuming you know what’s best for your partner. I’ve seen religious people go their separate ways spiritually, and still maintain a strong marriage. You can pray together, but you will be judged on your own (if you believe in that sort of thing). I disagree with my husband on lots of things that are very important to me. We are not carbon copies of each other (how boring!!) and grow together, even though we’re on different “branches” of the tree of life. (Where the heck did THAT metaphor come from??)
Yes. Why?
Actually, I’m going on vacation and will be unable to respond to your answer for about a week, so allow me to address what I see might possibly be your direction. (please forgive me if I am way off base here)
If you are implying that I should leave them to make such a decision without doing all I can to dissuade them from it, let me put it this way:
They are capable of making the decision to walk into speeding traffic, but I would assume there was something fundamental they did not understand about the nature of rapidly moving automobiles. Because of my love for them, I would not be able to leave them alone until I was certain they understood traffic in the same way that I do, and that I had assurance that they would not allow themselves to come to harm as a result of traffic.
The decision you referred to in your question is far more dire than that of whether to step in front of a speeding car.
But it still comes down to making sure they have the most information in order to make the decision.
From the responses to my posts thus far, I’m concerned about what I see as an odd assumption that I’m going to brainwash/control my family. Nothing could be further from the truth. My wife and I are at similar places in our faith journey, learning and growing together spiritually. Our children will be taught everything we know, as children should be by their parents. If any one of us develops a crisis of faith, the others will be there to help lift them up and nurture them back to a secure knowledge of the Truth.
If they are adults, and not mentally ill, why would you assume they haven’t already thought this major step through and have weighed the possibilities and consequences of this major decision? What if they still believed that a god exists, but chose to worship with Jews or Muslims? Isn’t worship of god the whole point of religion?
The decision you referred to in your question is far more dire than that of whether to step in front of a speeding car.
The decision is only more dire if you’re right. And you won’t know that until you’re dead.
But it still comes down to making sure they have the most information in order to make the decision.
Suppose you sit them down and give them all the information they lack. And they still want to worship Allah instead of Christ. Do you divorce?
From the responses to my posts thus far, I’m concerned about what I see as an odd assumption that I’m going to brainwash/control my family. Nothing could be further from the truth. My wife and I are at similar places in our faith journey, learning and growing together spiritually. Our children will be taught everything we know, as children should be by their parents. If any one of us develops a crisis of faith, the others will be there to help lift them up and nurture them back to a secure knowledge of the Truth.
You’re at similar places in your faith right now. That could change! When you say you would bring them back to the “truth”, that’s your truth…not their truth, which they’ve already started moving toward. How is that not a desire to control?
May I say that clairobscur’s post is the one I can most agree with so far. Different people have different notions of what is important in life; and it’s not up to us to say to someone who feels he could not be a truly compatible mate to someone of a different (religion/ideology/attitude towards money/fandom) is necessarily bigoted, intolerant, whatever. Or to put down that aspect as being irrelevant by comparing it to trivial disagreements, or as being megalomaniacal by magnifying it to encompass attempts at subjugation of others . A person believes something is that crucial in a marriage? Their issue, not mine. They’re not dating ME.
I agree that it is their business, not mine. I’m curious, but not to the point that I feel the need to control what anyone does in church. What has since captured my interest is the fact that some people think it is their duty to save their family members from changing faith. I would assume that the person I marry is smart enough to know what they want spiritually. Is it sad that they no longer worship in the same way? Maybe. But I find it much sadder that someone would put so much weight on it that it could actually destroy an otherwise satisfying relationship. Like I said, it’s not my business, but then NOTHING on these boards is actually anyone’s business. Just a conversation, that’s all.