Catholic/Atheist - How to make this relationship work?

Basically what I’m looking for here is how couples have managed to work around this difference in their lives. How did you get married? What did you tell your children? What do you do on Sundays? Just kind of looking for what you can tell me about past experience with this situation.

Just to add a little about myself. I’ve been in a relationship with my SO for almost 2.5 years and this topic has come up but we’ve never reached a conclusion. Recently she has wanted to become more active in her church and has expressed the fact that she does not understand my views on god.

Thanks in advance and if you have any questions I’d be happy to answer!

We’re not Catholic/Atheist, but Catholic (him) and Jewish (me). On Sundays, he watches the game and I play with the kid.

Mostly, we have an understanding that I’m not going to convert to Catholicism and he’s not going to convert to Judaism. Or that if one or the other does decide to convert, it’s an issue of free will and not subtle pressure.

Essentially, you have to have mutual respect for each other’s religious differences. If she wants to be more active at her church, let her. Don’t press the issue; it’ll cause a fight. However, she needs to understand that you do not believe in a god, and that she shouldn’t push the point, either.

Lotsa luck,

Robin

Oh, and for the rest of your questions:

We got married in a civil ceremony.

As for the kid thing, he had a bris, and because Judaism is matrilineal, he is Jewish. However, we do celebrate Easter and Christmas with my husband’s family, and if someone wanted to take him to Mass, I wouldn’t put up a fight. Fortunately, they’re pretty respectful and tolerant, and haven’t brought it up yet.

Robin

Can you be more specific about “she does not understand my views on god”. Do you mean she doesn’t like them, or she can’t intellectually comprehend them?

Did you know a Catholic is allowed to marry a non-Catholic in a Catholic wedding?
You have to do things like promise that any kids would be raised Catholic, etc. etc., but that doesn’t guarantee that they are going to end up being Catholic when they are adults. I don’t think it means you have to lie about your own beliefs to your kids.

Thanks MsRobyn for sharing that. The idea of a civil ceremony was brought up but she insists on getting married in a church. I have no problem with this because I’m not completely against her religion, I just don’t believe in god. Which leads me to Rusalka’s question. She just cannot understand how a person could go through life not having something to believe in or an understanding of what happens after death.

Also responding to what you said, I also don’t have a problem with her raising the kids Catholic. I guess I’d rather have them have some experience with religion full well knowing that when old enough they will make their own decisions. I myself was baptized. I really didn’t have a choice in the matter but even if I did I certainly wasn’t old enough. Up until communion I did attend church on a somewhat regular basis with the family but years after that I was old enough to realize that thats not what I truly believed in.

In short I’m not against her and her beliefs just because I don’t hold the same ones. I also wouldnt be against baptizing them or having her take them to church.

Since you’re looking for advice and personal experiences more than facts, I’ll move this thread to IMHO.

bibliophage
moderator GQ

General Questions is for questions with factual answers. IMHO is for opinions and polls. I’ll move this to IMHO for you.

Or I could let ** bibliophage** move it.

DrMatrix - GQ Moderator

I am an agnostic married to a Catholic. We had a civil ceremony.

Early in the relationship we had debates about God and eventually just gave up on it. At this point (after 14 years together) the subject rarely comes up between us. I don’t interfere with her Catholicism and she doesn’t try to convert me.

The only time this issue has really come up in our marriage was when my wife wanted to baptize our daughter. I thought it was pointless and didn’t want to do it. It was important to my wife, though and eventually I relented under the condition that I didn’t have to be there during the ceremony.

Now our daughter is almost ready for kindergarten and my wife wants to send her to a Catholic school. I was really opposed to this at first, (the word “brainwashing” came up during the discussion) but my wife believes she would get a better education than at a public school.

Our compromise is that we will send the kid to Catholic school but I reserve the right to expose her to other viewpoints, encourage her to ask questions and think for herself and let her know that she doesn’t have to believe everything they tell her. I intend to tell her that I don’t believe in any of that God stuff but that nobody knows for sure and that she’s allowed to believe whatever makes the most sense to her.

I guess I should say that my wife is a liberal Catholic and that she doesn’t subscribe to every official RCC position (she’s pro-choice, pro-gay rights and pro-ordination of women). For her the Church is more about community and tradition than hard doctrine and she’s extremely non-judgemental about other beliefs. Personally, I think she’s really more UU than RCC in temperament but she grew up RCC and is comfortable there. If she was really hardcore Christian or evangelical in her faith our marriage probably wouldn’t work. We get along fine because she sincerely doesn’t care what other people believe or don’t believe and has no desire to change them. I’m that way too so it works.

Kinda adding on to what DtC said. My fiance is Catholic, I am sorta a pantheistic hedonist (I was raised in a Catholic/Calvinist household and went to nursery school at a synagog…what did you expect? :smiley: )

We don’t try to subvert the others belief system, and agree that, being humans, we can’t know the entire truth anyway. We are going to be married in a civil ceremony, more to avoid the whole fuss rather than from any religious problems. As long as you respect the beliefs of the other person, I don’t see a problem. Unless you are militantly athiest…then problems arise. Let your kids make up their own minds. So what if your wife raises them in the Church…it didn’t work with you, did it? :smiley:

A few have made a go of it if they are old enough or emotionally mature enough, (witness some replies) but it’s pretty risky if you are both young and expect to have kids. Typically one partner or the other in these scenarios (usually the woman, but not always) will want to become a more bonded part of the church community when kids arrive. If the SO is not onboard with, or antagonistic toward, this goal the delicate tap dance that worked previously falls apart, and often marriages can fall apart as a result of these fractures.

I don’t think it’s wise for young couples to be imagining that “love conquers all” in these situations. People change over time and often move toward, and become more involved with, the roots of their faith as they get older. Anything in the way in these scenarios often gets pushed aside including SO’s.

Since this is IMHO, I’ll drop an opinion.

You two have no business together IF her faith means anything to her. Christians marrying unbelievers is a no-no, no matter how you interpret the Bible. Yes, there are guidelines in the Bible for Christians regarding what to do when your spouse doesn’t believe. However, that is for people who either didn’t know better when they got married, or for people who ended up converting after the marriage took place. She, however, is without excuse. And I think it’s pretty sneaky of her to date you for over 2 years and then start a missionary project.

If she wants a Christian husband, she should date a Christian and not an atheist. If she wants her kids raised in a Christian home, marrying an atheist isn’t the way to go.

I’m not saying there’s anything “wrong” with you. If you wanna be an atheist, that’s your business. If she’s gonna call herself a real Catholic, though, then marrying an atheist is out. It’s not fair to go into a relationship and then try to convert someone so you can have a home and a family that is all the same religion. This is why people shouldn’t even date someone that they know they wouldn’t want to marry, or would have big conflicts with if they did marry them. People should either decide “ok, we’re just not going to do religion,” or “ok, let’s pick a 3rd party religion and do that one” or “let’s one of us switch to the other’s religion.”

Split households are a bad idea and all it’s gonna do is confuse any kids you have. Mom believes in God and Dad doesn’t. Oy.

And this “let your kids make up their own minds” thing? Bad move. Kids need GUIDANCE. They need direction, and throwing them out there from infancy and saying “find your own way” is just cruel. Childhood is hard enough without having to figure out the whole God thing on your own with no help. How is a child supposed to find ANY religious path for themselves? It’s not like they can educate themselves on different religions and drive themselves to shul or a mosque or a church (in the beginning anyway, I suppose a teenager could do it if they were particularly determined). Do you wanna haul them all over the city every weekend until they pick a religion? I think if you’re going to raise a kid in a religion at all, you should just pick one and raise 'em in that one. Later, when the kid is grown, they can choose stick with it or find something else that suits them. Expecting a little child to make a major decision like that, though, is just too much IMHO.

I’d suggest Abbie Carmichael’s position is a bit strong, UNLESS the OPs prospective wife is real hard core about this stuff.

I’m rock-solid atheist, although not strident about it, while my wife was a lifetime Catholic, even active in the Diocese’ operations before we got married. She’s since given up on the Pope & switched to the Episcopals because she sees that the Vatican cannot (or more accurately will not) distinguish doctrine from theology.

We’ve been married 16 years and it works fine, subject to a few caveats I’ll outline below.

As to The OP’s specific questions: She does her thing every Sunday for 3-ish hours & I enjoy my time alone. We don’t (& won’t) have kids. We got married in a Catholic church. You didn’t ask, but we did the Catholic “engaged encounter” weekend retreat thing, a requirement in those days.

We do a typical commercial US Christmas, plus she goes to a service on (I think) Xmas eve. I ignore Easter & she goes to service. Big Deal. We don’t have much interaction with our extended families, but mine is pure athiest like me and her Mom is Soft-core Catholic & her sister defected to the Lutherans years ago.
Caveats:

We can talk about religion as a social phenomenon, not as a belief system. I’m perfectly comfortable discussing it like an anthropologist, and we often talk about the content of the Bible readings of the week, but we both think we’d both be real unhappy in any discussion of why she believes or why I don’t. So we generally don’t go there. It’s more a matter of mutual respect, not so much avoiding a touchy subject. We both think the other person is smart enough to know what’s right for them, and we’re both big enough to know the world contains more than one opinion on these matters.

I’ve made it clear she can have as much time & space as she wants to pursue her belief, and she’ll get no guilt trip from me, zero.

But, if she starts to build her life around the church & her friends and aquantances there, that’ll be a part of her life that, perforce, excludes me. I simply don’t play that game. Sorta like if I took up hunting; she’d gladly grant me the time, but she’d never get into it, not even a smidgen.

That means she spends most of Sunday AM & an extra hour in the evening once every couple of weeks with the music committee or extra Bible discussion or whatever. That’s fine with me. If she invited a bunch of them over to pray or have Bible discussion, well that’d be getting ready to become problematical. Not much danger with Episcopals, but if she went hard-over Baptist then we’d be in another situation.

Kids: When we got married we assumed we’d have them and we’d cross the religion bridge when we came to it. Circumstances intervened and now we’re childless for life. Stuff happens. But if we had kids, I would fully expect that she’d take them to church & teach them her way and I’d be patiently teaching them my way. Would they be confused? Maybe. Little kids can grasp “Mom likes Chocolate & Dad likes Strawberry”. A 6-year old has no more comprehension of religion than that.

A 12-year old can begin to decide for themsleves, but only if they’ve ben exposed to both positions. I find a world of difference between people like me who do not believe and see no purpose for believing versus the many people who were raised as Christians but are now non-participating & who don’t buy any one denomination’s version, but still have some belief (or need to beleive) somewhere, and a nagging guilt that they’re missing something.

I’d want my children to be able to be free of religion, or be involved in it as a matter of informed choice. Filling young minds with that stuff while admitting that yes, once they’re older they can lapse if they choose is just not the same. In fact, I’d argue that’s more detrimental than truly giving them both ways.

My bottom line: If you’re both mature and neither of you makes religion (or lack of it) the center of your life, there’s plenty of room for you to be a very happy & successful couple.

OTOH, the family right across the street from us are Capital C Evangelical Catholic, where the word “God” appears in every sentence and Jesus appears in every paragraph. All the 7 kids are named for saints & there’s literally nowhere in their house where Jesus isn’t watching you from a cross or a painting. I can’t even stand to dine with them, much less be married to someone like that.

As a practical matter, I’d expect you’ll have more trouble with her family than you will with her. So an important point for you to understand for yourself is how does your wife-to-be work with her family? Do they control her? Does she need to please her Mom or can she tell Mom to butt out & make it stick?

Between yourself and your wife you can work as partners to achieve a very smooth cooperation on this or any other topic. But if every time she talks to Mom or Sis or …, she’s getting an earful of how she ought to be doing it, well then it becomes all of them against you and your wife is forced to choose sides.

That scenario’s Hell on a marriage when the issue is something minor. But if you get in that situation over religion, well the marriage is probably hosed and so are you.

Ideally your wife-to-be won’t be the first of her siblings to marry or have kids. GrandMoms-to-be can get fiercely protective of their grandkids, to the point that they think their interests override those of the father (ie you). The more traditionally rasied Mom is, the more this tendency is out there. If your contribution to her grandbrood is #s 4 & 5, shes likely to be more relaxed than if yours are her first or likely only grandkids.

Points to ponder.

All in all I’m very glad I chose the person I did for my wife. I’d have missed out on a lot had I (or she) taken Abbie C’s doctrinaire approach. But we have had to be consciously mature about how we handled this, at least at first, to keep it a smooth part of our relationship, rather than a sore spot. Good Luck.

Mr. Del is an atheist, and I’m a Catholic. Last I checked, I’m still a real Catholic – I haven’t gotten any phone messages to the contrary from the Pope recently.

On Sundays, I go to church and he usually does not. Once in a while, he will attend with me if there is a special music program or speaker that he is interested in. My church always welcomes visitors for whatever reason they are there. He will also attend if there is a larger family type thing going on – a wedding or a funeral mass. I appreciate that he does this graciously – I have a cousin who is married to an atheist who also happens to be a jerk, and seemingly cannot attend a funeral service without making loud statements to the effect of “I wouldn’t have come to the church except my wife MADE ME!” Obviously, such behavior is related to him being a jerk and not to his atheism.

(A brief aside: during the fall and winter, I spend more time away from Mr. Del on Sundays not because of church, which is relatively brief, but because of football. Talk about mixed marriages – he is not an NFL fan! What was I thinking? Yet we make this work because I have my football club to watch the games with, and he uses this time to do this that are of interest to him and not to me, like get together with his film geek friends and watch terrible B horror movies.)

He was raised in a religious (althougb not Catholic) family, so he does have fond memories of holidays, and he likes that we decorate our house for things like Christmas and Easter. For me personally, it would be harder if this were not the case, I’m not sure how I would feel about a house without a Christmas tree. We are both cool with the fact that these things have different meanings to each of us. I would suggest talking about those issues as well as the more obvious church-going – how do you feel about having a Christmas tree? A creche? Easter baskets? Bingo? (Mr. Del loves taking my grandmother to bingo, which is a good thing, because while I am Catholic, I am not that Catholic. :wink: ) Not eating meat on Fridays during Lent – who does the shopping and cooking? I am the primary cook in our house (in our case it is because I dislike cooking slightly less than he does, so we’re not real gourmets over here), so I cook meatless, and if he wants something else, he can make it or order it in.

I am probably somewhat less active in the parish community than I would be if I were married to another Catholic. This was something I had to give a lot of thought to, and your girlfriend might want to ponder over just how active she wants/plans to be. I think it is great (and important) for couples to have time to pursue interests of their own, but that needs to be balanced with time spent doing things together. Since we’re not doing Catholic things together, that time needs to be reserved for non-religious activities. I have to devote the time for the parish from my own bank of personal time, not the communal time. For us at least, this wasn’t any more difficult that sorting out how much time we spend on other activities. (FYI, we don’t have a weird time clock worked out for personal time v. couple time, it’s much more fluid. This made it sound like we have a strict schedule or something – it was just more of a desciption of how things work out).

We don’t have children, but we have talked about what would happen should that change. We’re both okay with raising the potential children Catholic, with the understanding that we will be very upfront with them about the fact that some people are Catholic, and some are not, that some people are members of other religions and that some people are not religious in the first place – and that they (the potential children) can decide if Catholicism is for them when they are teenagers. I would like to think that I would teach my (potential) children that even if I were married to another Catholic.

The reason we would take this approach, rather than the opposite (raise them as atheists, let them decide to be Catholic later if they want) is that church provides a community that can be beneficial even if they ultimately aren’t interested. Besides, at the very least, they’ll have a leg up if they decide they want to become art historians, medieval scholars, or classical musicians.

Of course, we don’t actually have children* so you’re probably better off listening to those dopers who are parents in this situation. I would say that the views of Diogenes and Mrs. the Cynic are pretty similar to ours.

*I do take our cat to the annual Blessing of the Animals at church, if that helps. :wink:

I’m a hard-core Episcopalian who’s very close friends with a pair of Wiccans and who’s been seeing an agnostic. I also nearly married a Catholic, and, since neither of us were willing to convert we spent many enjoyable hours discussing religion.

First, let me get my definition of “unequally yoked” off of my chest. As I said, I’m a devout Episcopalian who does consider my religion the most important thing in my life. I would, however consider marrying a non-Christian and, given my tastes, including who I associate with, I’d say that’s reasonably likely unless NoClueBoy or Steve Wright decide to head my direction. I will not marry someone with whom I’d be unequally yoked. I wouldn’t even date someone for long. You see, I see unequally yoked as implying poorly matched in wit, strength of will, intelligence, and nature. What this means is that I would be far more unequally yoked with someone like Abbie Carmichael than with that Wiccan friend of mine. Basically, a curious, intelligent atheist would be a better match for me than an Episcopalian of ordinary intelligence who did not believe in questioning authority.

So, on to practical advice. After 3 years of arguing religion around here, I’ve come to terms with the fact that there’s no way I can convey to an atheist what my faith means to me or why I am prepared to get up at the crack of dawn after 4 hours sleep to go to church. I’m not married, but if I were, I’d have no problem with my husband sleeping in while I went off to church so long as he didn’t try to talk me into leaving the church completely. Make sure you both understand that you can respect each others views without necessarily agreeing with them. If you have a hard time grasping the spiritual aspects of your SO’s faith, at least consider the social aspects. The church’s I’ve attended have become like family to me, and, if your SO’s church is like mine and they haven’t met you, they’re probably curious about you. As I said, they can be like family which means they want to meet the man who’s making her so happy.

Frankly, it may be difficult for her to accept that you honestly don’t see evidence of God. It’s something I still have difficulty wrapping my mind around. If that’s an essential part of who you are, though, and I assume it is, it’s up to her to make up her mind about whether she’s willing to accept it. She has to realize that you cannot coerce a person into believing, even if it’s out of love. I would consider marrying an atheist, but I would not consider giving up my faith for one. As I once told that Catholic gentleman, “If I have to choose between you and God, you have to know Who I’ll choose.” I loved him very dearly, and that wasn’t the reason we didn’t marry, but we did get it out in the open, and accepted it.

Good luck to both of you,
CJ

One more bit of practical advice. My mother is an Episcopalian; my father is an agnostic who was never baptized. When we were kids, on Sunday mornings, Mum would take us to church while Dad puttered around the house, except for those rare periods when she’d talked him into joining the choir. They’ve been married over 40 years. While I realize there is a difference between agnostic and atheist, I thought you might like this evidence that it can work.

CJ

Oh, bull. The kids aren’t going to be confused one bit.

I was raised in a household where my dad is not religious/agnostic (nominally Lutheran) and my mom is Catholic. It was perfectly functional. While my mom went to church on Sundays with me and my brother, my dad stayed home and watched football or something. He did go to Church on Easter and Christmas but only because those were family days.

My mom was very active at our parish and eventually became head of the food bank there several years ago, which we all “volunteered” for on Saturday mornings. But there was no push for him to convert or anything. He wasn’t religious, she was. End of story.

It caused absolutely zero problems or confusion whatsoever. Of course, my parents were pretty easygoing when it came to exploring other religions. I asked to go to a Lutheran service once, so my father took me. I went to a Jewish service with a next door neighbor a few times. Went to a Buddhist ceremony with a Vietnamese friend of mine, too. And, of course, if I went to one of those other services, I didn’t have to go to Mass on Sunday.

I’m facing the same situation with my current female. She’s Catholic, I’m nothing. So we have had this discussion a few times. My basic position is, if she wants the kids baptized or whatnot, that’s fine. I’ll go to the ceremony and do my bit. Same thing with confirmation, etc. She’s not interested in converting me and she’s not very active in her church anyway, so we’ll see.

I’m agnostic/atheist depending on my mood. My wife is Catholic, though she’s not very good at it.

We got married in the church. Since I don’t care about the church, I was willing to lie to the priest about anything and everything so my wife could have the church wedding she wanted. For example, I told him I had never been married before. I’m sure our marriage is invalid in the eyes of the church, but fuck 'em. It only matters what the state thinks.

We agreed before getting married that if my wife wanted our kids to get baptised, go to Sunday school, or receive any of the other sacraments, she would be responsible for making it happen. I will not take the kids to church. I will go along with the silly rituals by showing up for first communion and the like, but I will not pretend to be Catholic.

When our kids start asking about God, I will explain agnosticism to them. I’m guessing that they will want to be agnostic, too, since it means you get to sleep in on Sunday morning. It’s cheaper, too. We gave about $1,000 to the church last year and my wife went to mass about three times.

I’m not entirely sure if you can have a Catholic wedding if you’re an atheist. I was raised Protestant, and about 7 years ago I married my husband in the Catholic church that he was baptized in. They didn’t have a problem since I was baptized a Christian, but I think they might have a problem if you’d never been baptized, or if you declared yourself an atheist.

The way that the children thing was worded was that my husband had to promise that he would to the best of his ability see that the children were raised Catholic, and I had to simply acknowledge that I understood he had made that pledge. We told the priest at the time that we would also like any children we had to have exposure to some Protestant services and the like, and he was fine with that.

We also had to promise that we would “joyfully accept” any children that God sent us, but I somehow doubt that our active use of oral contraceptives and/or condoms fits the bill. :wink:

It worked for us because neither of us was too terribly zealous about our respective religions, and they’re closer than Catholicism vs. atheism, for instance. I think you need to have a good discussion with her about what she doesn’t understand. Also, before a Catholic wedding all couples have to go through a “couples counseling” type of thing, which varies between churches. Ours involved a long Saturday session with other couples that had talks from priests and older married couples, then a few weekly sessions with a married couple where we took a particular psychology couples’ compatibility test, and discussed issues when differences cropped up between our answers. That sort of thing might help you, but typically it’s close to a wedding date I think - you’d want to work out potentially major differences earlier than that.

I come from a long line of interfaith marriages. My grandmother’s family were devout Methodists and my grandfather’s were devout Jews. When they married, interfaith marriages were strictly frowned upon and both were nearly cast out by their families. They found a rabbi to marry them in his office, and their families eventually accepted their choices and came to a truce.

My mom was not allowed to be confirmed in the Methodist Church - my grandfather put his foot down on that, but she was permitted to attend church with my grandmother (which my grandfather occaisionally attended because he knew it was important to my grandmother). She also went to temple on occaision with my grandfather (my grandmother would also attend temple because she knew it was important to my grandfather). They somehow worked out a way to celebrate both Christian and Jewish holidays (and managed not to get fired:)), and my mom told me was not confused at all growing up. In fact, she said she appreciated the viewpoints of two different religions because she felt it made her a more tolerant person religiously and eventually chose Christianity because that’s what felt right for her. When I was 2 my mom & dad divorced and my grandparents often took my sister and I to both temple and church. While my mom was and still is Christian, she wanted me to be able to decide for myself.

When I got older I chose agnosticism. It just seemed like the right choice for me - while I have no proof that God or whatever exists, I’m also not willing to completely close my mind to that option. I will be married in a week and a half, and my fiance’s family is Hindu, and the bulk of my family with the exception of a few aunts, practice Christianity. My fiance considers himself an atheist. However, we will have a dual ceremony because we know that religion is important to both of our families - Hindu first, then a Christian ceremony performed by a Unitarian minister. In all honesty, we are not terribly concerned with the religious aspects of our marriage because we both respect each other’s boundaries and wouldn’t think of imposing our beliefs on each other.

I’m not sure yet what we’ll do about our children. We’ve discussed it, and he doesn’t mind if I take them to church or if my mom does, but he reserves the right not to go, which is fine with me. He also wants to make sure that they know his point of view and can make an educated decision regarding religion later on in life.

I think that in any interfaith marriage, you just need to compromise and understand each other’s point of view. It sounds as though your SO, though she may not understand exactly where you’re coming from, respects your opinion and will not force you to become deeply involved in any religion, though she would like to be. I think the most important thing here is that she retains her tolerant views despite her deeper involvement in religion.

As for children, I agree with a lot of the opinions here that they should be allowed to make an informed decision. Although children do need guidance, the reason people are educated is so they are prepared to make sound decisions on their own later in life. Although they are not prepared to do so at a very young age, if they are fully informed about both sides without having one of you imply or explicitly state that the other’s views are wrong (which, IMHO, would be far more confusing to the kid than allowing them to make their own choices), they should eventually be able to come to a conclusion that suits them best.

While I wouldn’t recommend going as far as lying about anything to a priest, having grown up in the home of an agnostic father and a Catholic mother, my siblings and I didn’t have any problem with it.

If you’re willing to agree to let your wife raise the children Catholic, I don’t think the church will have a problem with it.

My parents were married in 1941 – that was not only pre-Vatican, that was pre-anything that represented an enlightened point of view by the Catholic Church. They didn’t try to convert my father, but they did insist he take instruction on the Catholic faith.

My father, being a young buck, decided to argue points of faith with the instructor. After a couple of classes the old parish priest took my father aside.

“Do you love this girl?”
“Yes?”
“Do you want to marry her?”
“Yes.”
“Do you want her to be happy by getting married in the church like she asked?”
“Yes.”
“Then take the class and shut up.”