Wow! When you lift it to such an abstract level, you’re almost talking about basic etiquette or mature adult consideration – thinking beyond oneself and all that. I dare not call it “Common Sense” now-a-days, since that stuff is becoming horrifically UNcommon.
Upon reading that, I immediately remembered the scene in Young Guns where Emilio Estivez (Billy the Kid) and Charlie Sheen (Richard/Dick Brewer) are in an old shack arguing --with guns in hand-- about Richard’s exceedingly long *Grace *before the meal. Fortunately, the argument gets interrupted by a bounty-hunter.
Hmm…I seem to recall (from watching some Cecil B. DeMille movie) that the monotheists are Commanded not to do that kind of thing. Someone [Graham?] once wrote an editorial saying “There’s a reason the First Commandment is first on the list.”
Whoa! Slow down, there, Casanova! Shouldn’t you at least get a picture first, or something? I can probably find something to send you. What’s the make, model, and gauge of that shotgun?
—G!
“I coulda shot you, Billy! Now put that fork down!”
. --Charlie Sheen (as Richard “Dick” Brewer)
. Young Guns
Particularly if you’re a guest of family. I’m an atheist bording on an anti-theist, but I’ll hold hands and be still if I’m a guest in my grandfather’s home. It’s a tradition I was raised in, one I understand, and my being an atheist isn’t going to make him be any less of a Baptist minister. Pretty sure that if it’s your parents or grandparents with whom you grew up, the pre-meal ritual isn’t a big shock. Why would I refuse to take my Grandaddy’s hand?
I’m not going to do grace or any religious anything in my own home, but in the homes of friends, sure. Even if unannounced. I’m not going to pray, and if invited to say grace I’ll decline without a reason. Usually I just say no thank you, and that’s enough. It’s their house, why would I be uncomfortable with something they are doing there if it’s not painful or illegal or potentially harmful (like, you know, Mr Dibble’s story, I can get behind his actions there.)
I presume I’m a guest in someones home because I am related to and love them (because the ones I’m related to and don’t love/like I don’t talk to), or they are my friend and I care about them, so I can sit still and do whatever for a minute before I eat the food they very graciously prepared for me. Why wouldn’t I? Anything else seems a bit precious, if you ask me.
It’s not my family, it’s my husband’s family (and other random gatherings along my life. Some of which did involve my family, like the Taco Bell story). And as I’ve made it clear over and over, I always go along without without saying or doing anything disprespectful (except not closing my eyes). The snag I have is that I know these people, these particular people, would not sit down at a table in a Muslim home and (I don’t know Muslim meal-prayer rituals at all, so I’m just going to pretend they’re the same) hold hands and bow their heads in implied agreement and let the host pray to Allah* before dinner. They may not say anything at the time, because their Southern hospitality manners demand that they remain polite in front of others… but they’d be angry or resentful inside, and I’ll be the family gossip wheel would be spinning later on about what a horrible thing they were made to do–take part in a prayer to a false god blah blah blah.
No, not everyone is like that. But I know many who are. And yes, I know them well enough to know they really are like that because I’ve heard similar stories come out of their mouths (not my husband’s family, though they share all the characteristics which is what makes me believe that polite facade aside, they would NOT be accepting of the non-Christian prayer.)
It’s the fact that everyone assumes everyone else is a Christian, and that they’re hunky-dory with doing a Christian religious ritual before meals, and don’t even bother to think that just maybe one or more of their guests would be unbelievers and either uncomfortable or even slightly offended by being coerced into participating. And if the tables were turned, they would be the ones uncomfortable/offended, and would probably be more likely to either say or do something either beforehand to get out of it, or afterward to indicate it wasn’t appropriate.
It’s the hypocracy as much as anything that bothers me. The praying part itself is boring and I am inwardly rolling my eyes and the absurdities coming out of the prayer-giver’s mouth, supposedly on everyone’s–which by definition includes mine–behalf. There is also a tendency in recent years for these prayers to go on for several long minutes at a time, and they use lots of “we belive that you, Jesus, did blah blah blah” or “we thank you, Jesus for…” and all sorts of other “we” phrases which make me twitch inwardly every time they’re said, because all I want to do is blurt out “NO! Not “We”! Don’t speak for me to beings I don’t even believe exist! Thank you!” Obviously I’d never do that, and that bit of hyperbole is above the level of annoyance that I actually feel, but each time he says “we” it’s little jabbing reminder that I’m NOT considered one of the group–that they do NOT take my beliefs into mind. That they don’t care.
If it was just holding hands for 20-30 seconds while somene recited the Lord’s Prayer or did a simple “thanks, God” type of prayer that didn’t include statements projected from the group as a whole, I’d have a much easier time letting it roll off my back. Fortunately on my mom’s side, she just says her quick prayer and starts eating without making a big production of it or making anyone hold hands*. She just says “thank you Lord” and starts eating.
*for hygiene issues the hand holding part is one of the parts that bothers me the most. For example, I’ve been to my brother-in-law’s house several times. Most of the times there were neither soap in the bathroom nor a towel for hand drying. I really DON’T want to hold his hand–especially right before eating, you know? But you stand out and make Granny confused and upset if you try to excuse yourself from the handholding, so we do it anyway.
*Yes, I know Allah is the same god, and “over there” it’s what Christians call god, too, but over here it’s a big, scary word for a lot of Christians and even nonreligious people, as it means “terrorist people’s scary 72-virgin-granting god”…
As nasty as it sounds, we should be really careful to judge -
If the guy was modern and cosmopolitan the circumcision may have been more form over substance as a nod to tradition etc etc - what I am saying, you really don’t know how much of a circumcision was done.
I gotta side with Anaamika on this one. Even if it’s just “a little cut” that’s still going to leave scar tissue, right? There’s still pain involved, right? It could cause lessening of sensation later when she’s sexually active, right? And even more importantly, IT SERVES NO FUCKING PURPOSE AND IS JUST A CRUEL, OUTDATED “TRADITION” that needs to be STOPPED.
Your religion is up to you, so long as it only affects what you do. Once you start wanting it to affect what I do, then it’s no longer just your religion, it’s my annoyance.
People with religious beliefs are forever instructing the rest of us to ‘respect’ their religious beliefs and their freedom to believe whatever stuff they want to believe. Fine, I’m happy to go along with that, up to a point. In return, they have to respect the fact that I don’t share the same beliefs and therefore I don’t participate in the same rituals. I think this is fair.
Your god is as real as you want him to be. If he’s real to you, great, you can pray whatever prayers you want. To the rest of us, he’s as real as golden rainbow fairy dust. Deal with it.
To recap, I never said you didn’t do it. Answered your question, gave reasons why I think it’s not rude.
And your ‘argument’ here seems to be that because the people in your example are rude, you think that it’s rude for them to do what they do in their own home? Ok, then. I stil maintain that as a guest in someone’s home, you go through the motions. Don’t pray, do hold hands, do sit still, it’ll be over soon. If you’re really uncomfortable then don’t go back. Simple. Or don’t eat there.
And just as an aside, my Muslim friends say ‘Bismillah’ before dinner and ‘Alhamdulilah’ after. Maybe more devout ones or Sunni do something different, I dunno. Less of a production anyway. If Bismillah bothers you, then don’t ever sing Bohemian Rhapsody!
Again, because if your relatives or whatever would exhibit poor manners in the homes of non-Christians, you think it’s rude that they hold to their beliefs of what is proper in their home? Ok, then.
So you’re polite and they are rude. FWIW, I agree with you about the inanity of prayer, but so what? It’s over in 30 seconds, then hey, there’s ham!
Sorry, didn’t realise germaphobe was on your laundry list of issues.
Over where? The middle east? Indonesia? Pakistan? There are Muslims in America, you know? Some of them probably refer to the Christer god as Allah, too. Seriously? Islam is as innane as Christianity, but this remark is a bit OTT.
