Is it Safe to Have Sixpack Abs? Healthy?

In My Humble Opinion
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I don’t think my Mom was jealous of me. She had real worry. Unjustified but real.

Professional trainers that I am familiar with, and certainly the guidelines about training, try to get people out of the training for the specific body part mode of thinking. It is usually counter productive to train that way. Mostly trainers try to get people beyond the body part idiocy and understanding that whole body fitness matters. “Problem areas” are identified not as vanity muscles that people want bigger but as areas that are relatively weak because the individual has overdeveloped certain other areas either with single sports focus training or in vanity based pursuits (the ignored core causing back issues being a common one). They usually spend a fair amount educating people that working on the vanity muscles alone is not even the best way to develop the vanity muscles and sets people up for other problems.

As far as what the ill-informed “target” when they do spot train for vanity, my opinion is that it is not what necessarily is most appealing to the opposite sex, but what current media images have convinced them is. I have a little time later - I’ll try to find some of the studies I’ve read before showing the disconnect between what the opposite sex finds attractive and what individuals think they do and also the studies that show how media images have changed over time (specifically more to the hypermuscled chiseled male.)

Maybe from your point of view body dysmorphic and eating disorders are rare but I certainly have seen them and not too uncommonly, both males and females.

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If you can find a cite that demonstrates that most people prefer the look of a belt overlapping spare tire over a flat stomach I’ll be very surprised.

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The thing is, his questions have been answered.

Is it okay to be concerned? Yes.
Are the concerns warranted, at this stage in time if he is otherwise healthy? Probably not.
Can he achieve or even get a semblance of a six-pack in his 40s? Yes.
Safe and healthy? Yes.

If we look at a number of experiences from those on dedicated health forums and/or add a few anecdotal examples, we’ll see a number of cases where the above is true. In fact, I think Broomstick handled the question just fine, in post #24 of the first page. Prior to that, Beowulff offered his personal experience, up until he hit 50 (post #22), and he had actual health issues which required surgery.

The thing is, neither post was ever addressed or acknowledged, from what I’ve seen, and much of the later discussion from the OP served to continuously wheel us back around to his original concern. Yes, some of it was bait and needlessly defended, but he had his answers on page 1.

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Okay, start off with the easy to find study showing that women overestimate the desirability of thinness. And men overestimate the degree of muscularity that women find most attractive.

As for media images, study 1 (pdf), out of Harvard, looking at action figure toys:

One example of a host of studies that show that viewing unrealistically thin images fosters body dissatisfaction, and a meta-analysis of the area.

More on media trends over time and their effects (scroll through the article to read in that pop-up window for the literature review): cultural standards have shifted to a more hypermuscled hyperlean male and as they have so has male body dissatisfaction.

CLee, there is a huge difference between “belt overlapping spare tire” and a six pack. A non-scientific poll done here on the SD two years ago, demonstrated that most women here don’t care about six-packs too much: 33% finding a six-pack to be a bonus but aren’t bothered either way, 25% not giving a shit, 19% would not find it attractive if it was over the top, and some, 5%, even thought it a turn off. Only 8% endorsed an unconditional “hot” for six packs.

Six packs have become a male fetish and male media images have convinced some males that women care a lot about, that they are something worthwhile to work hard at to achieve. Encouraging that single body part focus is not to my mind “a good thing” nor a healthy thing, and certainly if I had a family member expressing such a desire I would worry some and try to gently redirect them to a greater focus on real more general fitness goals that are both sustainable for most and associated with long term health. Such encouragement to change the focus would not be out of jealousy even though I can be a competitive bastard.

Krouget you say it is okay for him to be concerned but Tony had just stated that it was only okay to be concerned if the person was retarded. His question was in response to that.

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All we have is what the OP provided. Adult male, 20% BF, otherwise healthy, wants a six pack abs, OP is concerned about his health.

In general the replies have been in the order of: Is there a reason for concern? What’s the reason for concern? Is the man behaving in a way that warrants concern? What about the man’s goals cause you to feel concern?

Perhaps I missed the post where the OP explained his specific concerns, but to me they were just vague concerns with a somewhat negatively implied reference to a motive referencing a mid-life-crisis and the fact that an adult man with all his faculties intact cannot be trusted to make a decision to challenge himself to a achieve a fitness goal without the OP’s concern, much less approval.

So examples were given, about situations where the goals are not unrealistic and certainly achievable with no negative impact to health for an otherwise healthy male in that age group.

Those were largely ignored/unanswered by the OP. Instead the OP insists he is being taken to task unfairly despite his obvious and not entirely enlightened opinion on the subject. Being defensive, insisting on apologies at the merest slight, and ostensibly walking out on his own thread only to return does not help the OP in the least.

Thus, teasing ensued. Welcome to the SDMB. :wink:

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I don’t have stats or an informal poll, but don’t you feel that members of this community might be more forgiving of physical defects in favor of cerebral pursuits? Maybe a Straight Dope poll about physical fitness isn’t an accurate reflection of the world at large. While we busy making assumptions about the OP’s and his family member’s motivations, lets assume that since the OP’s family member isn’t a member of this community he may not be attempting to appeal to a select community of smart people and may have an entirely different dating pool in mind. Or maybe he just wants to cut a better figure in clothing. Either way, he’s chosen his stomach as a problem area and wishes to work on it, and I see no reason to jump to the conclusion that he’s on a path to ruin by pursuing a physical fitness goal.

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Coincidently, the entire 8% of women who were hot for a six pack were found to have the following two images bookmarked in their browser: DC and RG.

You say this as if there’s an epidemic of six pack men in the world. I’m guessing you work out, right? If you do and if you work out in the same sorts of popular health clubs that I have been working out in for more years than I can remember, you’ll have to agree that it’s hardly the problem your cites portray. Most guys in any gym I’ve ever been to are fat bastards just trying to keep from having to let out the Brooks Brothers pants that they fit into now. Which makes me wonder if 92% of women have given up and will take what they can get. :stuck_out_tongue:

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QuickSilver,
First page he explained that he and others in the family “just don’t want him to go overboard” and are concerned “that he sees himself as being fatter than he really is.” Some people do go overboard and some people do see themselves as fatter than they are. You agree that is reasonable to ask the question?

Again I couldn’t see the picture but those who did matched him to 15 to 20% to maybe as low as 10% BF. (The last estimate from runner pat who I know to trust on these sorts of things.) That is not a roll of fat hanging over the belt line yet that is what the individual allegedly sees himself as. Ergo it would seem he sees himself as fatter than he is. True he never provided the detail of how much the family member is exercising and if his exercise is otherwise interfering with his function in other parts of his life.

By post 12 brazil was acknowledging that he might have a subconsciously skewed idea of what is normal.

Nevertheless at post 21 he was being told his question was “odd” and by post 26 of “guilt sabotage.” His response was somewhat contrite: “As long as his six-pack abs are safe and consistent with good health, people should let him enjoy his mid-life crisis in peace.” His concern that a BF% cw and behaviors engaged in to achieve six pack abs might be too low/extreme was sated by the responses (even though IMHO it is actually an appropriate concern).

Despite that the very next response was an out of the blue accusation that he was trying to overrule what the man’s doctor was telling him. CLee’s

Honestly the only appropriate response to that, at that point, is “What the fuck?!” He had asked a straightforward opinion question about something he was admittedly unsure about that was answered with opinions and had been receptive to the answers, he hadn’t said anything about any doctor. He was not trying to overrule anyone. CLee was out of line.

Your portrayal is not what I see in the thread. He asked, he acknowledged the responses and was appreciative of them, and he only responded defensively after several people DID unfairly take him to task. When CLee berated him for even asking the very reasonable question and request for opinions.

Right. You have nothing to base your opinions on but feel free to make shit up anyway. No I have no reason to believe that people here have different things that they are physically attracted to than the public at large. Neither is a poll here a scientific thing. (I offered those too.) I do not accept that this board is even all that smart despite all the claimed high IQs, just more intellectually curious, a different beast. You are the one making assumptions about the op’s family member. You don’t know if he’s single or married and you are assuming what dating pool he wants to appeal to? Since you do not know the specifics answering that there is no cause for concern is unwarranted. Depending on the specifics there could be. The question was a general one and barring specific information offered was appropriately answered in that vein.

QuickSilver yes I work out. No, I don’t go to health clubs; my basement and garage set ups along with the road for running and biking on are all I need. No, I am not implying that there is an epidemic of six-packs; I am stating that there is an epidemic of men feeling dissatisfied with their bodies because they do not have six-packs and some who instead of setting real fitness goals, are doing stupid things with one body part in mind. The data is very clear in teen girls: dieting in pursuit of concordance with media images predicts later obesity and eating disorders both. I highly suspect the same is true in males both teen and adult: comparing yourself to an exaggerated media standard (as CLee has explicitly endorsed) fosters ineffective long term nutrition and fitness choices.

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Actually that question was aimed at you, a doctor who has never seen the man or a picture of the man, who tossed out the idea of body dysmorphic disorder, a mental health condition that has a list of criteria not met by the OP’s description. The OP merely asked if it were safe and/or possible, he didn’t not accuse the man of an emotional or eating disorder.

As far as the Hollywood comparison, any reasonable person understands that those in the media are paid to look as good as possible and likely have the time and resources to employ people to help them achieve those goals. Most 40 hour per week folks with families to care for don’t have the time to aspire to such goals. But anyone with a 40 hour week and a family who has trained for and completed a marathon has devoted the same time and attention to fitness as could be spent in a gym working on abs. You admitted training for a marathon. Was that an unreasonable use of your time and illogical risk of your mental health?

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Please show me two instances where anyone has explained when, according to TonySinclair, is it okay to be concerned about the conduct of a non-retarded adult family member.

Please quote them and provide post numbers.

Failing that, please admit that no such thing has happened and apologize.

Your choice.

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The OP seems to have lost interest and you and I are meta-arguing right now. :slight_smile:

I’m sure we agree more than we disagree on this issue.

This is just where I’m coming from: I’m of the mind that more men (and people in general) should feel a little dissatisfied with their bodies because about half of Americans are at risk for health issues due to obesity, which is an epidemic worth worrying about. Anorexia and bulimia is a real problem too but not nearly on the same scale as obesity and associated health problems. And no, I’m not suggesting we ignore young girls with eating disorders - I have two teens myself (boy and girl) and I understand the kinds of influences they face in this regard.

In short, we all choose our role models (if we must). I believe most people are able to make realistic decisions about their short and long term health goals when it comes to diet and exercise. To worry that some want to achieve an ideal (ex. six pack abs, or what have you) is misplaced concern in light of evidence that most are overweight and under exercised and will continue to be overweight and under exercised for the rest of their lives. So if your relative who is 20% BF overweight and wants to get in better shape and shoot for an ideal, wish him well and support him. Show concern when there is an actual reason to be concerned.

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I’m not rereading 4 pages of posts on this topic. Colour me lazy.

But I’m calling BS on if you’re going to pretend that you have absolutely no idea about when actual cause for concern is warranted in this regard.

I choose not to apologize because I have nothing to apologize for and your repeated requests for an apology from various posters are becoming a little silly at this point.

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You misspelled “laughing stock”.

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Making up more shit since I did not participate in this thread at that point (post 27) and did not enter the discussion until very late, post 110 to be precise, as a counterweight to the overwhelming “consensus” expressed at that point with some actual data-based humble opinions that there could be reason for concerns regarding a middle aged man focusing primarily on creating six pack abs.

You really DO seem to understand that bit you say about how any reasonable person knows that Hollywood images are not realistic standards.

Oh. No, you don’t. You do look to the tv for what is “doable.” Even as you state no reasonable person would.

Yes, if someone in my family was spending the same hours that it takes to train for a marathon or a half ironman specifically on the explicit goal of creating washboard abs, the one body part, not overall fitness or health, I would be worried about him or her and his or her mental health. Minimally I would attempt to redirect him/her to a more complete fitness approach.

As already noted I am not quite sure where the line gets placed between healthy exercise and excessive exercise (short of overtraining obviously) but place my marker mainly on if it is causing significant other physical or psychosocial dysfunctions. If it enhances other functionality or even is neutral on it, then it is not a disorder; if it does, it is. Someone who is, by informed opinions such as runner pat’s, at a BF% of 10 to somewhere between 15 and 20 tops, and has a self image that they have a roll of fat hanging over the belt line and need to lose weight, may be at significant risk of having a disordered body image. Such is consistent with a body dysmorphic condition. More information is needed but without that information a categorical statement that there is nothing to worry about is premature and possibly very wrong.

QuickSilver I hope you’ll excuse me resorting to a “my post is my cite” approach right now because I really don’t have the time to dig up the cites and we’ve had lots of threads about this in the past and this is something that I am somewhat involved in professionally … shame and a sense of body dissatisfaction actually is counterproductive in dealing with obesity. Setting up media images that are unattainable by most does not drive more from the other end into the middle. Validating the concern of someone who is not overweight that losing weight is something to aspire to is not a healthy mindset. Validating as “fitness” a plan to become thinner than is associated with best health outcomes and focusing on one body part as the goal is not, IMHO, a good idea. It is, to my mind, the sort of ignorance this board is set to combat. Reread my previous post and think about in relation to your girls. Dieting in teen years is predictive of BOTH obesity and eating disorders. The desire to become more like the media images results not in healthy long term behaviors but in disordered ones. They impede the development of the behaviors and attitudes that prevent and reverse obesity.

As some on these boards know by now I spend a fair amount of my time both one on one and as large group practice policy and standards working to prevent and treat obesity in kids. Successful strategies do not include shaming or making kids feel bad about themselves. They include promoting real fitness and healthy nutrition habits from early childhood on for their own sakes. DO promote healthy habits, nutrition and fitness both in your children. Do model them yourself. DON’T try to get them to lose weight or diet. DO teach them that those fitness and nutrition habits are what matter and that the media images are not something to emulate.

And yes, I agree that we don’t really disagree too much.

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Small nit pick, because this is what we do here, afterall - I agree and never claimed otherwise that you can’t just pick one body part, abs in particular, end expect to successfully work only that part to achieve the stated goals of the OP. IME, abs are the area that is hardest to work and typically appears last when very low BF levels are achieved.

I’m sure that you can provide all kinds of studies that support the fact that shaming doesn’t help people lose weight. I agree. It’s a terrible way to motivate people to do anything. I’d never condone such a practice.

However, we are a society where good nutrition and access to recreational activities (and leisure time) is typically available to most. If one’s goal is to achieve some sort of athletic build, they should not be discouraged by telling their goals are not realistic becase 20% BF for the average American 40-something is normal. It’s setting the bar of expectations too low in this case and (I know you’ll disagree) is as much a dis-service to society at large as the unrealistic images in fashion mags, and other media.

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This whole thread has a very “Harrison Bergeron” feel to it.

It also is reminiscent of the recent controversy of the “fit mom” who was accused of “shaming” her fat friends because she dared to display the results of her hard work and dedication. Talk about tyranny of the mediocre…

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One could also take a look at nearly every pre-teen, teenager, and college-age kid on a competitive sports team, dance team, cheer leading squad, or recreational runner, cyclist, or triathlete is capable of maintaining a normal weight, and some if not most, have very defined muscles and endurance, too. A well-muscled body is entirely possible for a wide range of ages not limited to Hollywood for those interested in pursuing it. Optimum fitness is not an unreasonable goal and it shouldn’t be promoted as an impossible standard.

I’m curious as to what you feel are the benefits of training and running 26.2 miles versus the benefits of training and running a 5 k. As I understand it, too much running on hard surfaces wears the ankles, knees, and hips and is very hard on the feet. Not very forgiving on breast tissue, either. So how much running and training is excessive and points to a potential mental health issue? Does the mere completion of a 26.2 mile race improve one’s overall physical health, or is it more of a mental achievement?

I’m certainly learning about your feelings on the matter though I have no idea what this discussion has to do with fat shaming or obesity in kids.

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Running is not an automatic death sentence for your joints. Millions run every day for years with no problems. It’s not compensating for poor biomechanics that cause trouble.

I was a moderate overpronator yet I ran for 26 years with mileage in the 70-85/week(college) to 40-55/week(in my 40s) range with only one week down due to plantar fasciitis.

As with any activity, it’s what it does to the rest of your life that determines if it’s excessive or not.

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I’m just curious as to how DSeid will answer with regards to where the line should be drawn between a beneficial amount of exercise and the pursuit of a goal for pure vanity.

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Vanity can be a valid reason for goal setting. For most people, it’s not enough to fuel a lifetime at that activity. Usually, it’s given up or the workouts are done for the sake of doing something that person has found they enjoy.