Is it sexual harrassment?

In My Humble Opinion
1

My 14 yr-old son is a boy scout. He recently went on a “high adventure” hiking/camping trip - extreme roughing it, pack everything in and out. His group had 4 boys, 2 dads, and one young adult.

Without getting into too much detail up front, the other 2 kids who my son is pretty close friends with, chose to be tentmates, so my son was placed with this other kid - a year or 2 older and somewhat bigger than my son. We learned about tent assignments the morning we dropped him off for the trip.

After the trip, we find out there was quite a bit of “teasing” going on. I guess the big “insult” that week - as it seems to be with too many kids these days - was that everything was gay. My son doesn’t care for that, but he says he went along with some of it sort of in self defense.

He said his tentmate took it further, repeatedly saying things to my son like “you know you want it” and patting him on the butt in mock affectionate way. My son told him he didn’t appreciate it and wasn’t gay, but as I understand it it got worse every night, culminating in the kid telling my son he was going to rape him while he was asleep.

My son has had less than successful experiences going to adults in the past, so for whatever reason, he failed to tell the adults about this all week. And they failed to pick up on it themselves. And the young adult went along with it somewhat, saying things like, “Maybe we should leave you 2 alone.” Probably most distressing to me is that the other 2 kids - my son’s “friends” tolerated it and even went along with it.

This post is already getting too long. Last night we had a long talk with 2 adult leaders. They had already met with the other kid and his parents. And a week ago my wife and son had met with another leader over the same thing. We feel really good about their attitude and how they are dealing with it. And my son would just as soon have this be over and done with.

But the leaders are in a tough position. If this is sexual harrassment, the scouts have a “zero tolerance” policy, and the higher levels of the organization need to be involved. And the troop itself has to step out of it. If this kid truly is a “sexual predator” or whatever, the leaders really need to make sure any other kids are protected. But in terms of what I feel is best for MY kid, I don’t really need this to go beyond the troop. I’d rather have this addressed by these parents I know, than some 3d party - even if they are a “professional.”

What do you think?

How big of a deal is this, and what needs to be done?

Thanks.

2

If the boy is threatening to rape his tentmate I would take this very seriously.

I’m not sure why you feel it is best to let this just drop here? Fear of peer pressure or embarassment for your son?

I realize your son is probably wishing the whole thing were over already especially since you’ve already stated he has had problems in the past that were not dealt with appropriately by the adults around him. Unfortunately the tentmate may very well be a sexual predator in the making and could see his lax treatment in this case as open opportunity to try things again as there seem to be no real repercussions for his behavior.

3

I’m not saying let it drop. The troop is very concerned with it, and intend to institute more training for leaders and the boys as well. And the kid - as well as my son and the other 2 who were participants in this “teasing” are all on a short leash for the time being.

The problem with going “to council” is that any decisions will be made by 3d parties with limited personal knowledge of any of the kids or adults involved. And the well intentioned leaders I have met with and respect will be told to step back. OTOH - the leaders I know are just parents like me and my wife. They don’t know how to tell if something is a big deal or not. At least they have not fallen back into the “boys will be boys” attitude that has driven me nuts tolerating bullying in the past.

How much worse is a threat to rape someone than a threat to “kick his ass?”

I guess I should disclose that I am not at all a fan of “zero tolerance” policies.

4

I am not a fan of zero tolerance policies either.

IMHO a threat of rape is sexual harrassment. A threat to rape someone is worse then a threat to “kick his ass”. I know that at 14 (an even now) I would get over an “ass kicking” a lot quicker then a rape.

The kid that threatened your son is about 16 right? He is old enough to know that his behavior was very wrong. I don’t think that the boy should be thrown in jail or anything but I think that he shouldn’t be allowed on any more over night camping trips with younger boys. I would be scared to allow your son to have any more contact with the boy in case he decides to get some sort of revenge on your son for telling on him.

5

Potentially it’s a huge deal. In actuality, it may be quite serious or it may be fairly benign, mainly reflecting poor judgment on appropriate teasing. I probably have more questions than answers, but I’ll share some thoughts.

Is there not some Scout instruction on sexual harassment? Assuming there is, I would think that the other scout merits some punishment for violating policy. I further feel that the two friends need a strong talking-to about abetting the violation, and your son needs a talking-to about going to authority when appropriate. And I have to wonder how the two adults could miss a week full of this stuff going on in such a small group.

But the thing that bothers me most is the young adult. He should know better. If he was in any position of authority, his complicity was egregious, and I would not think it too harsh if he were dismissed from scouting.

I wouldn’t be satisfied unless I knew that the measures taken were strong enough for the other scout and the young adult to realize the seriousness of the issue and change their behavior. I question whether handling it at the troop level would achieve this.

6

I don’t like those “zero tolerance” policies either, because they don’t allow decision-makers to exercise their own judgement and they don’t allow the accused to advocate for themselves. Maybe I’m just inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt, but some kids just aren’t taught that it’s inappropriate to joke about these things. I don’t know what kind of discipline they have in mind for this kid, but he’s not going to learn anything if he gets treated like a psycho criminal for this. Except maybe that he’s a psycho criminal and that society is his enemy.

7

I’m not a fan of all zero tolerance policies either. For example, I find it insane that schools expel 6 year olds under zero tolerance for bringing weapons to school for coming to school on halloween as firemen with a little plastic axe on their belt.

On the other hand I have been a victim of sexual harassment and sexual assault and I know how serious these crimes are and how hard they are to deal with.

I find it hard to categorize which is worse in regard to your question of ‘ass kicking’ versus ‘rape.’ I wouldn’t want any child threatened with either one. Both take away the power and the confidence of the recipient. Both are assault if acted out. In my experience some people use harassing behaviors to feel out their victims and see how much abuse they are willing to tolerate. It also helps them rationalize the abuse when it finally happens.

I also understand your distrust of the system. I would hope that these third parties would indeed do their homework and learn all they can about the parties involved before passing judgement. Don’t be afraid to seek outside council should you feel uncomfortable with any of the decisions made or even to get a more objective opinion. (one of my fears is that these people would act to ensure no negative publicity for their organization instead of to ensure the safety and well being of the boys involved)

I hope this comes to an appropriate and reasonable conclusion for your son’s sake!

8

Gary - I feel confident that most if not all the factors you raise will be dealt with by the troop. Last night the 2 guys asked if we or our son remembered a video they showed the troop on this. Neither my son or we remembered. So it seems like they have tried to do some education - and at least in our case - it wasn’t effective. The message we get is that some more training will be done soon.

The leaders shared our displeasure at the other 2 boys’ actions/inaction as well. I told them that I simply did not expect too much of boy scouts - as I had been disappointed at the bullying tolerated by grade school, cub scouts, and middle schools. These guys really seemed as tho they wanted the scout oath to be more than mere words - especially in directing actions between scouts - and hopefully in society in general.

The leaders we have spoke with (other than the 2 on the hike) have been very distressed that this went on. The one dad we talked to who was there just said he didn’t think anything unusual went on. That is another tough situation. They live 2 doors away, we are on extremely good “neighborly” terms with them, our kids simply walk in and out of each other’s houses, etc. Tough to confront someone and tell them they let your kid down. Especially when they were acting as a volunteer. And your kid blew it by not bringing it to an adult’s attention.

And I don’t know how the leaders missed it. But I can imagine there was a lot on their plates. And the kids were probably pretty good about doing stuff out of earshot.

Of course, in the back of my mind I keep thinking is this really a “bad thing” in BSA minds given their official homophobic anti-atheist policies.

The leaders were really upset with the young adult. Especially since that particular kid was the brunt of some teasing when he was a scout. Seems to be a lot of the “kick the dog” phenomena going on. Don’t know if he will be kicked out, but I’m certain he will hear more of this.

My son now knows in no uncertain terms that he HAS to see a leader at the first instance. Even tho other adults have let him down in other situations, he has to give these leaders a chance. Not mentioning it at the time makes a bad situation - simply my kid’s words (and memory) against everyone else’s.

tanookie - I mentioned “ass kicking” because if this simply involved a threat of physical violence, there would be no need to take it to council. But since there is a zero tolerance sex policy …

Whether this kid tried to rape my son or beat him up, my son would have had to physically defend himself and call out for help. And I don’t know which “threat” is necessarily worse. Especially if it is just an empty threat with no followup intended. But how to tell the difference…

Ah, the joys of parenthood.

9

Dinsdale, I wonder if the perp in this instance was just an example of a kid with a really obnoxious, immature sense of humor rather than a real threat. The neighbor didn’t see anything resembling “menacing”, nor did your son look particularly distraught to the other supervisors. Now, I’m not condoning what happened by any stretch, but I think sometimes kids (boys, in particular) are extremely childish when it comes to expressing sexuality. They feel wierd about discussing anything regarding sex, so they come off as assholes.

From what I’ve read of your kids in your various posts, it sounds like your son may lean toward the more sensitive side. This would automatically be a bad mix with a kid who doesn’t understand that his behavior is inappropriate (but not necessarily dangerous).

While I understand that you don’t want your kid placed in this situation again, I’m leaning toward a talking-to and an intense lecture, but not actually moving toward kicking this jerk out. He just needs to grow up and needs to be told that he’s behaving inappropriately. That’s just my take.

10

From a hyper-technical legal standpoint, whether or not it’s legally sexual harassment is going to depend on whether the person was targeting your son based on his sex (male) rather than his (actual or perceived) sexual orientation. Targeting someone based on actual or perceived sexual orientation is not legally “sexual harassment.” It is still harassment, and threatening to rape someone in his sleep is assault. Touching him without consent on his butt is battery and depending on the laws of your jurisdiction may be sexual assault/sexual battery.

Were it my son, I would involve the police and I would advise the scout troop that if the harasser is not immediately expelled I would sue the troop for negligence in failing to protect my child from assault. Any feelings of “neighborliness” I might have toward anyone involved would evaporate fairly quickly in the face of something of this nature.

IANAL, etc.

11

Up until this point, I was with you on not seeing why it had to be escalated to the council. This moved it beyond simple bullying or teasing. Threatening to rape someone, however jokingly, is not only reprehensible, but criminal. I definitely think this kid should suffer the full consequences for his actions, up to and including involvement of law enforcement.

This “young adult” character should be kicked out of Scouting if he’s over eighteen.

I really hope son-of-Dinsdale is doing okay emotionally after all this.

12

Good point, Amanita.
Something to be kept in mind, Dinsdale, is that rape is not an act of sexual attraction. It is an act of violence, aggression and control. The victim’s sense of shame and embarrassment is used to control the victim and insure their silence. Please make sure your son knows he has done nothing wrong. I’m infuriated by the “Maybe we should leave you two alone…” remark; that further entrenches the victim’s belief he is somehow provoking the entire thing.

Plus, if you let this go, there’s sure to be a repeat of the entire incident with a different victim.

13

The impression I got was of someone who discovered your son was bothered by this and so teased/bullied him increasingly.

Obviously I don’t know enough about it, and it may have been a serious threat. But this seems the likeliest, so bear it in mind.

14

But it’s still not something he should have had to put up with, whether it was meant or not. It made him uncomfortable, scared him & made him feel abandoned and betrayed by his friends and by an adult that was meant to be there to protect him. It doesn’t matter whether the 16yo meant it or not, it is about whether the victim perceived him as meaning it, and it certainly sounds like he did.

It’s definitely sexual harrassment and I’d say beyond sexual harrassment and needs escalating.

15

I don’t care if he was just being obnoxious-that’s not the point.

The point is, it’s inappropriate and he should be called on for it.

16

I don’t want to disagree with you here, but surely it matters?

It may be in both cases the same response is appropriate, (or that he’s the sort of bully who will end up as a rapist) but I think it’s very relevant whether he’s a bully or a rapist. A fair number of bullies finally get it and grow up later in life, and a lecture and a kick up the rear may suffice. A rapist needs serious prison time considering.,

17

I would let them escalate it. What if this big kid continued doing this (to anyone, either in or out of scouts) and it eventually came out that it wasn’t dealt with using proper procedures in Scouts when it happened originally? The scout leaders and everyone else is going to be in big trouble for not escalating it as they were supposed to.

And actually, maybe he’s been doing this kind of stuff often and people have tried to intervene and had no success? What then? How do you know your son was really in no danger?

It was more than a little teasing, it was threat of rape, and the big kid was in a position to actually do it if he had wanted to.

18

Here’s one way I imagine it getting ugly.

What if the kid denies having said everything my son says happened in the tent? At this point, it would be nothing more than my son’s word against his.

My son acknowledged that he participated in some of the other “teasing” - at least to some extent. And every other participant - the one kid, the other 2 boys, the young adult, and the dads, have reasons to cast events in the best possible light, and to question my son’s version.

All too often in the past I have seen situations such as this where the accuser becomes a target for criticism.

Moreover - being painfully honest here - I love my son tremendously and believe what he told me about this. But I certainly have no proof that everything happened as he said. And the mere passage of time coupled with emotions can color anyone’s recollections.

I think my son went through an extremely unpleasant situation and has learned some important lessons. I am not certain to what extent he was or was not in specific danger. But I feel this situation can be addressed in ways other than looking to “punish” the other kid. And being totally selfish here (as I often am where my family is concerned) I’m not eager to sacrifice my son for the hypothetical protection of other kids in the future.

Let him and his parents know he is on double secret probation and watch him carefully - not only at camp but in all scouting activities. My son says the kid definitely bullies younger scouts when adults aren’t watching.

I personaly feel somesuch “progressive” discipline would be adequate and appropriate.

But - of course - I am speaking solely for myself and my son. I agree wholeheartedly that the troop is in a different situation, and that they probably need to inform Council in some manner, not only to seek guidance and assistance, but also to cover their asses.

As I understand it, they already did speak with Council. As the 2 guys described it the other night, the 3d leader speaking to council may not have presented the case tremendously forcefully. He may have been waiting for the Council rep to question him in depth, rather than volunteer tons of info. And the 2 guys the other night were not thrilled with the particular council rep’s response. They said if they went back to council they would make it a 2-pronged effort - both to the normal procedure and to a particular official as well.

I understood their concern to be similar to mine - if you simply follow the prescribed procedures you have no say in what particular individual gets assigned your matter. And tho they may all be well-intentioned, they may not all be equally competent, and may have varying agendas, etc.

I’ll let you know if anything else happens.

My son goes to regular summer camp this Sunday. The other kid will be there as well. My son was told that he is to report ANYTHING untoward immediately. All 4 of the boys in question will be told they are essentially on short leashes for the immediate future, as even the low-level teasing was intolerable by troop standards. And I understand the leaders will be informed of these events, and will be on the lookout for any type of teasing to nip it at an early stage.