Opposing illegal immigration and extremist Islamic terrorism aren’t necessarily bigotry. Trump rose to prominence on a bigoted conspiracy theory, and won the nomination on bigoted rhetoric. That’s very different than merely opposing illegal immigration and terrorism.
Your problem there is, when you vote a bigot into office, you’re undermining the faith in democracy for everyone who isn’t part of that bigot’s in-group. Which isn’t a big deal in a homogenous society - America got along just fine for more than a century with the most appalling kinds of bigots in the White House, because the vast majority of the population wasn’t directly impacted by that bigotry. In a diverse and multi-racial society, though, that can be a death sentence for the country.
That’s not to say that I think Trump is going to start rounding up Muslims and Mexicans and putting them in camps, or that blacks and queers are primed to rise up in open revolt. We’re not at that point on either side, and Trump’s probably not the guy who’s going to take us there. But the fact that he ran a campaign that was highly hostile to minorities, and won, is an incredibly dangerous sign. Trump’s shown that you can run an openly racist platform and win on a national level. If he’s not rebuked at the ballot in two or four years - if he wins a second term using the same tactics - what sort of candidate is going to follow him? If 2024 sees Republican candidates scrambling to be the next Trump, how much farther are they going to take his rhetoric? At what point, exactly, are presumptive non-bigots like Damuri Ajashi going to finally draw the line on supporting a bigot to further their own self-interest? And at what point do the populations targeted by a bigoted political machine start resorting to violence to protect themselves from that political machine?
Political corruption is an important concern, absolutely. Nobody wants to see the US turn into another Russia. But better another Russia than another Yugoslavia.
It’s tempting to see the race as bigotry vs. political corruption, and many voters were motivated by concerns about both, but it seems to me that this election was mostly about change vs. status quo.
It has turned out to be status quo v. status quo on steroids.
Those are all very good points. If it were truly bigotry that was primarily responsible for the rise of Trump there will be unrest at some point. I think it’s uncertainty caused by globalization more so than the desire for ethnic cleansing. I could be wrong though. I think the next 20-25 years will be interesting globally.
If I had to make a bet about where large scale violence is to take place my bet is it won’t be the US. Life is too good here. That’s why I disagree with those who think Trump wants to destroy the US. Who wants to rule a wasteland?
I wouldn’t go that far. Obviously. Trump is a charlatan who is not serious about bringing real change, but because he’s not a professional politician, many things will be different no matter his intention. And although it might not be a good thing, Trump does seem serious about protectionism, which is a pretty significant change not just in policy, but in basic honesty. Democrats have run on protectionism every cycle but it’s all a lie. Trump actually meant it.
That is just stupid. If you voted for the known bigot, then you didn’t oppose bigotry. You supported it.
Does anyone think DT wants to destroy the US? I think he wants to go down in history as the Greatest President Ever and be universally loved. If he does damage or destroy the country, it will be by accident, stupidity, shortsightedness, poor judgment, overreaching, overconfidence, hubris, and finally hamartia. Like the way his companies went bankrupt.
What if things go well?
I vote conservative/libertarian but I was mostly pleased with Obama. Bill Clinton was alright. I don’t see the need or productivity of hyperbole from either side. It’s dangerous.
I was addressing only this one statement of yours: “That’s why I disagree with those who think Trump wants to destroy the US.”
Well, if you read this very board you’ll see many who think Trump is worse than Hitler. Who claim Trump wants to muder millions. That sounds like, at the very least, implying Trump wants to destroy the US.
I was curious, as a follow up, if you’d be pleased if the outcome of a Trump presidency was contrary to your fears? Or would you be like those party first Republicans who wished for Obama to fail?
Well, that’s the thing. Economic uncertainty and increasing racial violence tend to go hand in hand. The German people didn’t put Hitler into power because they particularly hated Jews. They put him into power because the economy was completely broken, and “the Jews” present a more tangible outlet for fear and aggression than “market forces.” I completely agree that Trump used fear over changes to the global economy to win the election. The frightening thing is that he was able to marshal that fear along racialized lines, and enough people either agreed with that, or were willing to accept it if it meant they might get a job.
Come on, man. Show me one post where someone literally says that Trump is worse than Hitler.
(Der Trihs doesn’t count.)
Edmund Burke wants to have words with you.
I don’t think Hitler overtly wanted to destroy Germany.
I’m not rooting for him, but I’m open to seeing some successes. For example, from what I’ve read/heard, his choice for Secretary of Defense is a good one. At least the guy reads books.
But taking Trump as a whole, his personal history, the pussy-grabbing, the “lock her up” bullshit, the only two newspaper endorsements were the National Enquirer and the KKK paper, the stupid tweeting, the anti-gay/anti-immigrant people he is surrounding himself with, the deconstruction of Obamacare, Medicaid, Medicare that the Pubs will now get to do, turning back the clock on abortions and driving them back underground, the hiring of Wall Street insiders after he raked Hillary over the coals for “being owned by Wall Street,” the selling of cabinet seats, the opportunity to tilt the Supreme Court way to the right, the massive conflict of business interests, his utter hypocrisy, his constantly shifting positions due to having no moral center.…it goes on and on…
I don’t want him to fail out of spite because “our side lost.” I don’t hate him the way the Republicans hate Obama and Hillary. But I believe with every molecule of my being that he is a dangerous man, not because he is filled with malice, but because he is filled with nothing. He is an empty, unprincipled human being who admitted that he “said whatever I needed to say during the campaign to get an outsider elected.” I heard him say that on the radio. Those were his exact words; I’ll never forget them. And he wasn’t even embarrassed to say it. If that’s not blatantly admitting to being a manipulative liar, I don’t know what is.
So I don’t have a lot of hope. I just want to get through the next four years with as little damage as possible. In 2020, I’ll be 72. Holy fuck.
I hope I still have Medicare, as I’m retired and was diagnosed with breast cancer last year. Knock-on-wood, I won’t need any more treatments. I hope my 92-year old mother still has Medicare. We have enough cash to pay for her assisted living (@ $4,000/month) for 6 more years. She would then go on Medicaid, if Medicaid is still available. If Medicaid is turned over to the states, we’re screwed, as Rick Perry and Greg Abbott already turned down the Medicaid expansion for Texas to prove how much they hated Obama. So, a lot of this is personal. This is not airy-fairy catastrophizing; it’s looking realistically at what I might be facing.
Thanks for listening.
Well thanks for taking the time to share. I didn’t vote for Trump nor did my wife. Many in our extended family did. And the reasoning is bizarre and in many cases we ended up defending Hilary from some of the off the wall stuff they’d come up with.
You know that I am not a fan of much on the wacky left. But where I do agree with the left is that in circumstances beyond one’s control in a society with vast wealth creation unnecessary suffering should be mitigated. Where I don’t agree with the left is that it’s ok to implement counterproductive, in the long term policy, that destroys incentives or distorts incentives to create that wealth that could and should be redistributed in some proportion.
So in good conscience I couldn’t vote for Trump because I thought the downside risk of a Trump presidency was too high. I do think that checks and balances and his desire to be approved, that narcissistic side, will be enough to keep the damage to a minimum.
Frankly though, I am not a fan of how much democracy we have. I’d be fine if the electoral college acted as intended. I’d be fine if Congress didn’t have to pander to the most radical elements of each party. I’d be fine if we didn’t have as much direct democracy in certain states.
For some reason I don’t have that much faith in the average American’s ability to do math. And if one can’t do 6th grade math proficiently I’m not sure that particular opinion on finance is helpful. Maybe I underestimate the wisdom of the masses.
Anyways, I pit your cancer and I hope you kick it and enjoy a long life.
I suspect you and I are going to differ on whether electing Trump sends an anti-corruption message.
The following was written pre-election by afavourite writer of mine. At a time it looked like Trump would lose but nonetheless:
You know this how?
Thank you for your thoughts.
I basically agree with this. I wish I had confidence that Trump and the Republicans in Congress were smart enough and cared enough about the American people to do this in a way that would really “make the country great.” Sadly, what I see is denial of the reality that there is a lot of unnecessary suffering that they could do something about in an effective way, but don’t/won’t, on principle.
I hope and pray you are right about the checks and balances. But with a Republican Congress and a soon-to-be right-tilting Supreme Court, it seems like a case of the fox guarding the hen house.
I do agree that his narcissism could be the country’s best friend, but in the long run, I think it will set him at odds with Congress. He wants to go down in history as the Greatest President Ever, beloved by [del]millions[/del] billions. I don’t think he really cares if the Republicans in Congress like him all that much. After all, there aren’t that many of them.
Oh God, I certainly agree with this. When you’re always in campaign mode looking to the next election, when do you accomplish anything? And now the P-elect is doing it, too. :smack:
This might be the elite snob in me speaking (or is it 68 years of experience?), but I don’t think it’s possible to underestimate the wisdom of the masses. 
Thanks for your good wishes.
Trump seems to have this ability to make people believe that, “I only lie to rubes because that’s all they deserve, but I would never lie to you-you’re not a rube, are ya? Of course not!”. He creates this temporary “inner circle” vibe that last long enough to get what he wants. This is why his supporters can so easily dismiss what he has done to others-they were the “rubes”.