"Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@random6x7

Her lack of charisma hurts her against charismatic opponents like Obama. I’m saying it was not a factor this election because the only people who think Trump is charismatic are either firmly in his corner or are looking for any way to blame Clinton.

or looking for a way to excuse her loss.

Clinton needed more people in a very few areas to come out to vote. There are a number of reasons this didn’t happen, and the only one under her control was her messaging. Not Trump wasn’t exciting enough. With hindsight, I wish they had released lots of ads with the kind of energy and messages that the convention had. Clinton got a huge bump from that, even though it wasn’t her speech thatpeople were talking about.

Coming out of her convention, it was Debbie Wasserman Scultz’s emails that people were talking about.

[Czarcasm]

@Damuri_Ajashi

In what way is Trump corrupt? People keep saying that… did he cheat during the election or something?

The fact that you can ask that asinine question this late in the game, after all the news and all the threads…:smack:
Fuck it. When it comes to this topic, you’re just trolling at this point.

[D_Odds]

@Czarcasm

The fact that you can ask that asinine question this late in the game, after all the news and all the threads…:smack:
Fuck it. When it comes to this topic, you’re just trolling at this point.

Took you a long time to realize that.

[Czarcasm]

@D_Odds

Took you a long time to realize that.

Yeah-sorry about that.

[Evil_Economist]

@Damuri_Ajashi

We just nominated a very flawed candidate because she insisted it was her turn.

We nominated Clinton because the vast majority of primary voters thought she was the best candidate. They were right.

[D_Odds]

@Evil_Economist

We nominated Clinton because the vast majority of primary voters thought she was the best candidate. They were right.

I don’t know who the “best” candidate might have been (Warren, maybe? IDK.) but the primary voters chose the better of the Democratic candidates who were running for president.

[Czarcasm]

@D_Odds

I don’t know who the “best” candidate might have been (Warren, maybe? IDK.) but the primary voters chose the better of the Democratic candidates who were running for president.

I imagine what the Republicans would have done with a Democratic candidate with a much smaller support base that openly embraced socialism, and shudder. Bernie would have been lucky to get 5 states, tops.

[Evil_Economist]

@D_Odds

I don’t know who the “best” candidate might have been (Warren, maybe? IDK.) but the primary voters chose the better of the Democratic candidates who were running for president.

Yeah, there could be other, better candidates who chose not to run, but they didn’t run. Of the people who ran Clinton was the best candidate, and was selected by the majority of primary voters.

[drad_dog]

I voted for Hillary but
she is the worst candidate possible, but
Trump was worse, but
I think he’ll do OK so why would you get alarmed, and
Hillary would have been worse, according to stolen emails I read, but
I can’t see how trump is corrupt, and
She would have been worse than Trump, but
I hate trump worse, but
you people are so stupid because,
you voted like I did, but
I can make it all better by acting superior to myself.

[octopus]

@Covert_Harris

Worse than a layoff, k9b. Our industry and specific hardware product line was just about the first, if not the very first, targeted by China, in the early '80s. I sold the company as fast as I could after over 100 years in business as a virtual monopoly. Everybody connected with the factory (except, thank God, the biggest shareholder)thought I was crazy, and tried to have me fired. Who would buy that cheap, un-American junk, they said? Answer: everybody. Within two years there was no more factory. The federal government told me that I was the only CEO they knew of in our industry that got out whole. And, no, most of my workers were not prepared for anything but laboring in a factory. Some undoubtedly found similar work elsewhere, but many American factory workers have had a hard time of it since, as we well know.

I always hear and read, even from the wise sages on this board, that labor costs don’t matter.

This is going to be an ongoing problem politically. We no longer live in 1949 where we were the only game in town.

[SteveG1]

@Czarcasm

The fact that you can ask that asinine question this late in the game, after all the news and all the threads…:smack:
Fuck it. When it comes to this topic, you’re just trolling at this point.

Absolutely. He’s a troll. It’s all too damn obvious.

[random6x7]

@Shodan

You may be correct that Trump’s “charisma” did not extend very far beyond those who were going to vote for him anyway. But he was able to fire up his base.

Hillary couldn’t do that. Lots of voters who were Obama’s base didn’t vote for her. They didn’t vote for anybody; they stayed home.

Trump won because he motivated his base. Hillary lost because she didn’t motivate hers. If you want to call that a relative lack of charisma, I have no objection.

Regards,
Shodan

Trump’s certainly polarizing, I’ll give you that. But he won less than half of the primary voters, and he didn’t win that many more voters than McCain and Romney did. Maybe he can fire up his fans, but there’s no evidence that he inspires anyone else, except perhaps with loathing. I’m not willing to call someone with such narrow appeal - in the sense of who is actually inspired to vote for him rather than just vote Republican or against Clinton - charismatic. Also, to be fair to Clinton, lack of charisma is not lack of likeability. Two different things. I don’t find her charismatic, but she seems warm and likeable when she’s one on one. Speeches aren’t her strong suit, but she’s not bad at them.

[Tee]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I don’t know. Its been hard to keep track of all the Hillary apologists but generally speaking, yes, the “I’m ready for Hillary” crowd is having a meltdown and calling half the country racist and misogynistic without any self awareness that this is a large part of why they lost the election.

I objected to characterizing all Trump voters as racist misogynist some pages ago, but I saw plenty of racism and misogyny during the election process.

I saw enough of it make distinctions by degrees: this is misogyny, that is more like antifeminism; this is racism, that is anti-immigrant policy.

I’ve not seen it said better than this:

You know, just to be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people, now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets offensive, hateful, mean-spirited rhetoric. Now some of those folks, they are irredeemable. But thankfully they are not America.

Then the other half:

are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

Clinton’s own words acknowledge the existence of these two groups. The excerpts are also a good summary of the forces she was battling in this race.

[marshmallow]

Trump’s rambling tirades are painful to listen to, but he has a certain sort of charisma, like an insult comic.

Jeb: My mother is the strongest woman I know.
Trump: She should be running.

<airhorns>

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@octopus

I always hear and read, even from the wise sages on this board, that labor costs don’t matter.

This is going to be an ongoing problem politically. We no longer live in 1949 where we were the only game in town.

Okay. Would you be willing to work for dollars a day? Say, $6 per day, for 12 hours of work per day? Would you be okay with living like that? Even dropping the minimum wage to the (utterly unlivable) $5 per hour doesn’t get you competitive with China, because the Chinese are willing to work for about 1/8th of that wage. Should we race them to the bottom? I don’t wanna live like that. I don’t think you would either.

[octopus]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Okay. Would you be willing to work for dollars a day? Say, $6 per day, for 12 hours of work per day? Would you be okay with living like that? Even dropping the minimum wage to the (utterly unlivable) $5 per hour doesn’t get you competitive with China, because the Chinese are willing to work for about 1/8th of that wage. Should we race them to the bottom? I don’t wanna live like that. I don’t think you would either.

I would work for my market value. Then I’d work to increase my market value. As I’ve done since I was 10 or so.

And if you’ve read anything I’ve said on this subject, I have also linked dropping the minimum wage with the creation of a basic income and a proper safety net in a country like the US that has vast productive potential.

What I wouldn’t do, is price out marginal and sub marginal workers from the work force and keep them permanently unemployed while enriching our foreign competitors and the heads of our corporations.

[bobot]

@marshmallow

Trump’s rambling tirades are painful to listen to, but he has a certain sort of charisma, like an insult comic.

Jeb: My mother is the strongest woman I know.
Trump: She should be running.

<airhorns>

Dice Clay with a red tie instead of a black leather jacket.

[Gyrate]

@Czarcasm

The fact that you can ask that asinine question this late in the game, after all the news and all the threads…:smack:

That and the “Gee, could you give me an example of how the opposition smeared Hillary?” question have done it for me too. There is no connection to reality here. I’m throwing in the towel.

Fuck it. When it comes to this topic, you’re just trolling at this point.

Or genuinely delusional. I don’t think we can rule out mental illness at this stage.

[adaher]

Why did smearing Clinton work, but smearing Trump didn’t?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Czarcasm

The fact that you can ask that asinine question this late in the game, after all the news and all the threads…:smack:
Fuck it. When it comes to this topic, you’re just trolling at this point.

So you got no answers, you just want to preserve your image of the Madonna Hillary. Gotcha.

Trump is a lot of things. He is a zenophobic bigot, he is a misogynist, he is a lying conniving bastard but how is he corrupt? Now he may end up being corrupt but he has never held a public trust before, how the hell is he corrupt? No answer other than “oh you don’t agree with every bad thing I say about Trump and every good thing I say about Hillary so you must LURV Trump”