This blogger calls himself “El Gusano.” He appears to share your opinions.
Of course, I know that certain words are OK for people to use when describing themselves but are forbidden to those “outside” the group.
Gusano can also mean “computer worm.” And many bottles of meszcal have a gusano on the bottom. But those definitions have nothing to do with Cuba. I promise not to use the word again at SDMB.
However, I still hope the USA can begin to have a sane relationship with Cuba. We get along with China–a country that’s not exactly a shining beacon of human rights.
And any Cubans who want to live in the USA are welcome. As long as they don’t continue to drive US foreign policy in a stupid direction.
Thank you for welcoming me to the US, I do like it here and might stay for a while.
Keep in mind that just because you disagree with a policy doesn’t make it stupid. I have stated a couple of times in this thread that the embargo does nothing to pressure the Cuban government in any way, and that the Cuban government uses the embargo as a convenient excuse. But, I have also said that any consideration of lifting the embargo should be solely on terms of how it benefits the US, notCubans, because the situation of the average Cuban will not change one bit from the lifting of the embargo.
As I understand the embargo today, it can only be lifted by congressional action, and since Congress represents the will of the american people I can only imagine that either Americans in general want the embargo in place, or (maybe more likely), Americans in general couldn’t care less about Cuba.
I realize this is a common belief of Cuban-Americans. (I grew up in the Miami metro area, btw, though I left many years ago, pre-Muriel in fact.) IMHO, it’s one of those patriotic sub-beliefs, like Americans who think we’re in Iraq because of 9/11. That is, one starts from a belief that the embargo must be continued because, otherwise, we’re admitting Castro won. Confronted with the argument that sanctions are hurting the Cuban people, you shrug and say, in effect, Castro is such an asshole that none of the value created would trickle down to the people. Well, you might be right. But probably not. In any event, the status quo has not achieved its objective in almost fifty years. Time to try something different.
BTW, what do you see as the best possible realistic outcome for Cuba? And how do we get there?
Well, since I haven’t lived in any significant Cuban-american community I think you can count my statements as coming from a different perspective. Most of the time since I left Cuba I spent in Canada, and I can tell you from an on-the-ground perspective, lifting the embargo will not change anything for Cubans.
Look at it this way, prior to 1990 Cuba was for all intents and purposes closed to the western world, that means no tourists and very little trade. Since that time tourism has opened up and foreign trade has multiplied. What has changed for Cubans in the 17 years since? Nothing. Do you think that opening trade with the US would make a significant change? Remember, the Cuban government will always control who and what comes into the island, I don’t see changes coming from lifting the embargo.
Having said that I’ll repeat, somehow I think this part of my statements seems to get ignored, if the US finds compelling reasons for lifting the embargo I don’t have a problem with them doing so, just don’t fool yourself into believing it will in any way help the average Cuban, it won’t.
Best and realistic are two different things, the most realistic outcome is that things will continue exactly as they are, until a cuban Gorbachev challenges the system from within. The best outcome? Something other than that.
Because if the same people arrived in the same way from Guatemala or El Salvador or Haiti, they would be called “illegal immigrants” and if they arrived from Cuba they would be called “refugees” and I wanted to indicate that the language was possibly contentious, depending on one’s perspective.
Got it, thanks. I run into the reverse of this when I was looking to come work in the US from Canada. Getting an H1B visa included some extra hassle, I am told, because as a 3rd country Cuban (meaning I was not going into the US directly from Cuba), I was not eligible for refugee status.
If I do decide to stay in the US I guess I’ll have to go the same route as the rest of the world, overstay my visa and live on the fringes of society. I’m kidding of course.
I don’t think that lifting the U.S. embargo will produce some miracle of democracy, medicine, or food supply to the Cuban people. On the other hand, the U.S. embargo does have a real effect on the Cuban economy in that the Helms-Burton laws inhibit investment from the outside by any multinational country with headquarters or significant presence in the U.S. They prevent Cuban ported shipping from coming anywhere near the U.S. for six months after they have departed Cuba. There are a number of onerous sections in that particular bit of Congressional foolishness.
If one needs to make a case for things in the best interest of the U.S., then I would say that the amount of money invested by corporations trying to prove that they have not broken Helms-Burton and similar laws or that the Feds waste trying to enforce those laws along with the good will of countries that have taken steps to punish corporations or people who have obeyed Helms-Burton (and we could certainly use all the good will we can scrape up), are sufficient savings to simply dump laws that do nothing to achieve any meaningful goal while wasting money and adding one more strike against the U.S. in the “World Bully” category.
lalenin, you’re leaving out that tourist revenue replaced Soviet subsidies. Thus, that it didn’t improve the lot of Cubans doesn’t tell us very much about what would happen if sanctions were lifted. BTW, for folks following along from the sidelines, this Wiki article is good for historical background and, thankfully, light on polemic from either side.
There’s a lot of information in that article. It wasn’t just that tourist revenue replaced soviet subsidies, it did in part. But also with the fall of the USSR Cuba opened up to foreign capital, most new resorts in Cuba have been built with Spanish investment. Almost all teh communication infrastructure was done bu Mexican firms. I guess what I am getting at is that starting in 1990 the embargo ended for all practical purposes. Not the US embargo, but the self-imposed Cuban embargo of not dealing with western countries. Since then economically there have been no changes for ordinary Cubans, politically either of course.
This is what some people don’t seem to understand. Cuba can trade with every country in the world except the United States. So the reason you see these old beat up 1950s cars on the roads in Havanna is not because of the embargo, it isn’t because Cubans are prohibited by the embargo from buying new American cars.
They could be buying Japanese and European cars even if they couldn’t get American cars. And once American cars were sold in, say, Mexico, there’s nothing in Mexican law stopping some Mexican entreprenuer from buying up used American cars in Mexico and shipping them to Cuba.
The reason the streets of Havana aren’t filled with Japanese and German cars is left as an exercise for the reader.
The reason for this is possibly because, whilst as you say the only direct embargo is from the USA that country uses its not insignificant financial clout to force other countries into an ‘either Cuba or the USA’ situation via the previously mentioned Helms-Burton Act. This is not to say that this is the whole story, but it certainly cannot be ignored.
Here’s another advantage: We could open our market to Cuban cane sugar. Drive down the price. Sux for Floridian sugar farmers (they’re ruining the Everglades anyway), but otherwise good for America – maybe Coca-Cola would go back to using cane sugar instead of corn syrup! sigh
The reason you don’t see many new cars isn’t as simple as the “embargo”. For instance, if you wanted to buy a BMW in Cuba you could . But not if you’re Cuban. Car ownership is strictly controlled and must be approved by the government, and of course you’d need hard currency as that dealership doesn’t take Cuban pesos.
As I said it may be more complex. That said your link is to a placeholder website probably put in place by BMW to prevent domain theft rather than any Cuban BMW dealership, furthermore www.bmw.com has a gap in its ‘national websites’ pulldown between BMW Croatia and BMW Cyprus so I’ll happily stand by my earlier statement that companies are forced to chose between Cuba and the USA.
Ok, try this link instead , not the dealerhsip in Havana, but a rental agency where you can get brand new BMW. By the way, you can get Coca Cola in Cuba, from Mexico, and you can stay in Sol Melia hotels in Cuba, the US, or just about anywhere else. So companies do not have to choose between Cuba and the rest of the world.
Except the we already impose a very steep tarriff on imported sugar, nevermind Cuban sugar growers, we stupidly keep out most foreign sugar to subsidize our domestic sugar beet and corn farmers.
Dropping the embargo isn’t going to provide a US market for Cuban sugar since we already deliberately try to prop up domestic production. US sugar prices are something like twice the global market price, this is the only reason the domestic food industry uses corn syrup. Dropping the embargo would probably have the opposite effect…Archer Daniels Midland would probably demand even stiffer protection against unfair competition from foreign agriculture. How dare those foreigners live in climates conducive to sugar cane farming!
lalenin, would you happen to know of any resources setting out the GNP/GDP history of Cuba? Preferably something on the Internet all of us can read, but if what you have are books or articles, I’ll take those too. I’ve been trying to find figures, mostly without success. About the only thing I found of interest, and it’s not systematic, is this case study. It’s undated, but the latest data cited are from 1999, which in studies of this type usually means it was written in 2001 or so. Also of interest, but purely anecdotal, is this 1995 account of a publisher’s visit to the island in connection with a conference.
What I’m trying to figure out, of course, is whether Cuba’s economy today is ahead of, behind or about the same as it was when Soviet subsidies ceased. If the economy is stronger and life for the people hasn’t changed, that supports your position. If it’s the same or weaker, that supports mine.
Rice growers near Houston (my home) would benefit from trade with Cuba. But the voice of the Cuban-American lobby has been loud & shrill. However, that voice is becoming voices. Many younger Americans with Cuban roots have good lives here–they leave the fading dreams of reclaiming the family banana plantations to the old men, nodding in the sunlight.
President Eisenhower began the embargo with an Executive Order. Since then, Congressional action & Executive Orders have continued that wrong-headed policy. Bush has not been shy of using Executive power–but he won’t anger a powerful lobby in the State that eased his way into the White House.
Quite a few Americans also want us out of Iraq. (In fact, many of us opposed the invasion.) Congress is only now beginning to respond.