I don’t get what this coddling old people thing is all about. Everyone says they do it out of “respect” for their elders. Isn’t respect a two-way street? What about respect for your beliefs and your ability to make choices independent of other people? Is the relationship so shallow that granny would drop you from the will if she thought you didn’t have the same beliefs as she (and would it really make a difference?)?
Sorry, folks. I was raised in a family that prides itself in mutual respect. I would no more fake it for any of them than I would expect them to fake it for me. It’s ridiculous and childish. And the ultimate in disrespect.
Hell, I haven’t even told my Mom I’m an atheist. And I never will. She’s already a basket case because my Dad died an atheist and she thinks he’s in Hell, she doesn’t have to worry about me too. She’s gone through enough.
Bowing your head doesn’t mean pretending to pray. It is a show of respect that other people are doing something important to them. It’s analogous to standing up during the pledge of allegiance, during another country’s anthem or being quiet during the funeral of someone you disliked. You don’t have to recite, sing, emote or do anything beyond not making a production over how thoroughly you don’t share the occassion.
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How is showing respect and concern for people of any age “coddling”? In this particular instance, SHAKES’ grandmother is extremely elderly, and apparently in frail health. She’s not up to emotional confrontations, and lacks the time to adapt gradually.
Making a production of individual beliefs doesn’t convey much self respect to me, much less strength or depthl. Most people do fervently believe all kinds of things, from politics to religion to music and on. So what? Must everybody put on a technicolor sound-and-light show of 'em all in the name of honesty and independent thought?
Bah. I wince every time I hear some righteously say, “I must be honest…” because usually they don’t. Usually they’re drawing lines in the sand instead of being secure enough in their beliefs to extend a little tolerance to others. It isn’t “dishonest” to just quietly refuse to get up in people’s faces about differing beliefs.
Veb
Thanks, jsc! You made my day. And yeah, Miss Manners is exactly right.
I’m completely with you about sitting or standing quietly while others go through their religious rituals. I see no harm at all in this, and i see no need to crap on other people’s beliefs. But the OP is, in fact, being asked to lead the prayer, and apparently has no opportunity to simply remain in silence while others pray. And, in my opinion, this is a different kettle of fish.
This is also the problem i have with Veb’s post. While i think it’s true, as a general principle, that “Religious differences don’t have to be paraded about,” i also believe that agnostics and atheists should not feel that they have to actively participate in rituals they don’t believe in simply to appease the believers. And that is what is being asked of the OP.
The implication seems to be that we atheists should simply go along with it to keep the peace. But can you imagine if i asked a religious person to forego grace altogether so that we could have a completely secular dinner? Again, i’ll stress that i would never do anything to disrupt a pre-meal prayer; i just have no interest in actually participating in it, let alone leading it.
Veb also says: “Quietly not making an issue of things doesn’t mean agreement, just a willingness to accept those differences and go on.” Yes, but “not making an issue” and “accept[ing] those differences” are not the same as actually acceding to contradict your own beliefs (or lack of) in order to make someone else feel better.
There’s something else that’s curious about this exhortation to just go along with it. It seems to imply that a Christian at my table would prefer to have me say a prayer i didn’t believe–thus being dishonest not only to myself and the people at the table but also, presumably, to God–rather than being honest and saying that i don’t believe. I’m having trouble believing that a good Christian would prefer that i lie about my beliefs rather than being honest about them.
Of course, at this late stage it’s difficult for the OP to hurt his/her grandmother, and that’s completely understandable. Still, this could have been made easier if the OP (or someone in the family) had told the grandmother about this earlier. I mean, i don’t imagine that SHAKES just woke up yesterday and decided to be an atheist.
Hmm… tough position to find yourself in, SHAKES. If I were you, I’d scream “I don’t worship your little man on a stick!” and start pelting gramma with biscuits.
Equally distasteful to me is being backed into a corner and having to choose between accepting something you don’t want versus being condemned by someone for your beliefs. What I proposed was a truthful and tactful way to quickly end what could become a divisive exchange. As has been pointed out already, respect is a two way street, and if one side is not willing to respect the other, conversations will deteriorate quickly.
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You’re absolutely right, mhendo, and I should have clearer. (I’ve posted too often to this thread; forgetting what points I made when!) I wouldn’t suggest you, SHAKES or anyone else should actually have to lead a prayer. Listen respectfully? Yes. Lead? No.
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Possibly we’re interpeting “active participation” differently. People who do pray should have their eyes shut and be occupied with their prayers anyway, not checking out what other people are doing. “Participation” for nonbelievers shouldn’t have to involve anything beyond just being quiet while the believers get on with it. I liken it to standing when another country’s national anthem is played. It doesn’t mean you’re expressing loyalty to that country, or even the concept of loyalty to any country, for that matter.
It’s the difference between respectfully letting other people do their thing without feeling the neccessity to explain your own beliefs in entirety.
I really don’t see what the big deal is. If you’re an atheist, it’s not like you’re going to go to Hell for lying, are you?
I politely decline to pray when asked to pray in public. If necessary I’ll say “Oh, I’m not comfortable; could (so and so) do it?” I do this just because I really am not comfortable about praying in public. I’m agnostic, but I will pray quietly to myself on certain occassions, like when I’m being shot at.
I was visiting with my girlfriend’s grandmother in the hospital after some surgery she had a few weeks ago. An NBA game was on and she was horrified by a player’s tattoos. She said to me, “Oh look at that! I think tattoos are just horrible! Britt, you don’t have any tattoos, do you?”
Now the honest answer would have been “Yes, I’m very heavily tattooed under my modset attire, but none of mine are as big as the big honkin’ tattoo on your grandaughter’s back!” But what, except being funny, would have been the point of that? It’s not like in order to know the real me she must accept the stark fact that yes I have tattoos booga booga booga! Instead I made some joke about “just the ones I got in the Navy” and avoided the topic. If asked about my religious beliefs I’ll probably just say I was raised Presbyterian and avoid the topic again. I have no trouble with them not being aware of aspects of my life that they would find distressing. I mean, they still don’t know I’m a lawyer. They think I’m a pimp.
Don’t bring up the issue unnecessarily, but if she asks you, I’d say you have a choice between gently declining to discuss your personal beliefs, or telling her the truth. Don’t be obnoxious about it, but don’t equivocate. Honesty is the cornerstone of respect, but remember that honesty and tact can coexist.
I have a relative who believes he must “tell it like it is,” even when no one really cares what he thinks. He may think he’s being honest, but it comes off more as offensive.
So I agree with the consensus: say that you’re uncomfortable with leading the prayer and hope that it ends there. If it doesn’t, take Miller’s advice.
I have never been good at praying out loud. Regardless of my religious beliefs. I’m not comfortable doing it pretty well regardless of what the prayer is (I’m not such the fan of public speaking, either).
If you’re a similar way, SHAKES, that would probably be a good thing to bring up. There’s probably someone else who would love to pray really loudly anyway;)
You visit your 90+ grandma and you care enough about her feelings to post this thread. I think Grandma is going to rest in peace over the state of your soul no matter how you choose to label yourself.
I don’t do it out of respect for my Nanna, I do it because I’d rather have a nice visit without her trying to guilt me for not going to church and not knowing where my rosary is. I don’t see her that often because she rarely comes to this side of the country and I can’t afford to go out there so it’s much easier to deflect then start up an argument and change her mind when I see her usually a couple of days out of the year. I get guilted enough for having the audacity to have had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock, that’s enough stress right there without fighting.
She’s old, she’s locked in her ways. I listen politely to her, share family news and then do what I want. Just because I listen to her or don’t force a confrontation doesn’t mean I’m giving in to her. We have respect in other areas but religion we do not see eye to eye on and she’s VERY Catholic.
For all I know I’m getting nothing when she passes on and that’s fine with me. I’m not doing it to stay in her good graces for the will. There’s lots of us anyway so if all of us got something it’d probably be pretty small. (8 living kids, 15 Grandkids, 1 great grandkid). I do it so we can have a nice family visit without anything devolving into an argument about religion.
Good for you, I’m glad your family dynamics allow that but I have to walk the minefield that is my own family and most of them are only starting to get the fact that I am an adult and can make my own decisions and mistakes without their help. It’s taking some hitting over the head though. Hey my Dad is finally learning maybe I’ll be considered an adult by the others before I hit my 30’s.
If she directly asks, you should tell the truth. HOW atheist are you, though? Are we talking hostile “rarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr God doesn’t exist and even if he did I hate him and I’d rather go to hell than bow before any god and by the way all religious people are mentally ill”, or are we talking “I don’t believe in God, but if that works for you, that’s cool, just don’t try to convert me?”
If it’s the former, you might could soften the blow and say something about how it was nice to be brought up in a religious home with values to guide you, yada yada, blah blah, finding what works for you, but right now you’re not sure about the whole God thing and can’t really classify yourself as ANYTHING, much less Christian.
IF she asks, I mean. Unless she flat out asks, though, I don’t see any need to volunteer the information.
As far as the prayer thing, just say that you’re not comfortable praying in a group. I’m a Christian and I won’t do it: I just do better solo, is all. I think most people will be cool if you ask that someone else do the prayin’ at dinner.
I’m with the “don’t tell unless asked”, crowd. A few years ago my in-laws found religion. They had always considered themselves christians, but were’nt very active. Then BAM! They started going to church every sunday, spending all their money on church things, and all the other cult-like activity. As far as they know, the only reason my husband and I don’t attend church is because of his schedule. They think that I’m a good little christian, and that’s fine with me because I know they wouldn’t understand my reasons for not being one. And also because I love them, and I think it would hurt them to know otherwise.
